Re: Are you kidding me???

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 11, 2019

I just looked at what it would cost to get a seat of creo, and I found the absolutely outrageous quote for "Design Advanced Plus" package for $10,599....for only a YEAR license! WTF??? I remember not long ago when you could flat out BUY a license for around $4k. I can't afford almost $11k for only a year's worth of use, that's absurd.

Anyone want to sell a used copy of creo 3 or a computer that has it installed as part of "downsizing your business"?

No wonder Solidworks has been mopping up the floor with creo sales for years. Just when their pricing was getting competitive with S/W, they went back to the old school ways when it was, what, $15k/seat? But at least in those days, you actually BOUGHT the software, not simply rented it for a year. What a total rip-off.

BenLoosli · ‎Jan 11, 2019

Do you need all the functionality that comes with that level of design package?

I am guessing that it also includes a seat of WIndchill.

I asked for a quote 5 weeks ago to change from maintenance on 10 seats to maintenance on 2 seats and 8 subscriptions. Still waiting on PTC to issue the quote and my maintenance expires the end of this month. I am thinking they do not want us to do this because it will result in a loss of revenue so they are stalling.

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 11, 2019

'Sup Ben!

This would just be for a PC at home to work on some personal designs. I wouldn't need Windchill, but I would need the advanced surfacing because I'd be designing plastic parts. When I looked some years ago I could pick up a package for a reasonable price, and I DO think the software is superior to S/W and have said that on many occasions here and on the S/W forums (much to their chagrin 🙂 ). But just when their pricing became reasonable, they do this and scr3w their customers.

And therein lies the crux of the problem. I understand and support Capitalism, but this seems to me to just be GREED.....

Chris3 · ‎Jan 11, 2019

If it is truly for personal use only they have student license that you can get for free.

https://www.ptc.com/en/academic-program/products/free-software

TomU · ‎Jan 11, 2019

Something doesn't see right with your pricing. List price for a subscription of 'Creo Engineer II with Advanced Assembly' is only $5,360 and that probably has more capability than you will need for use at home. (Includes Windchill.) I think list Essentials Plus w/PDMLink is around $3,500/yr.

TomU · ‎Jan 11, 2019

Actually, looks like the price is right for Design Advanced Plus. The question is whether that is the right package or not. Scroll to the bottom of this page for pricing: https://novedge.com/ptc/products/14079

Good information here as well: https://eacpds.com/new-ptc-creo-software-packages/

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 11, 2019

Hey Tom!

To get the "Advanced Surfacing & Additive Manufacturing" you need the Design Advanced Plus, and I would need to do surfacing on this project of mine. I can't use a "student" license because the files are incompatible with anything, and I'd need to make STEP models for tooling.

Really, all I need to do is RENT a system for a month or so to complete the project. I mean I could HIRE a company to do it for me, but I want to do the design myself, run it by some Engineers for FEA and and bring it into production.

$6K to RENT for a year (instead of BUY) is still absurd, but doable but the package (Design Advanced) probably won't do what I need.

SRSLY PTC?

BenLoosli · ‎Jan 11, 2019

If those are the prices, I may go back to management and tell them we need to keep the 10 perpetual licenses. The maintenance fee was within 10% of the price listed for the Design Advanced. These license have been rebranded so many times, they show in my license file as Flex3C or Enterprise SE. We do use Windchill.

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 11, 2019

I'd definitely look into it first and save yourselves some money.

Me, I'd be happy with a copy of creo 3 forever if I could buy it as a one-time purchase. I mean, bells and whistles are nice, BUT, if it's gonna cost me both legs and both arms, how am I gonna operate the mouse and keyboard??? As long as a package has a certain core functionality I want, and that's been the case for some years now, I'm fine with it. Honestly, for many years now, there really hasn't been an increase in core functionality, just changes to the interface (e.g. the dreaded/hated ribbon) and a few new features or slight enhancements to certain features, but we still don't have solid-body sweeps (something I'd pay extra for as a core feature and a TRUE enhancement) and the VSS feature hasn't changed much since, what, v15? It's been ADDED/moved to the sweep feature, but the functionality is the same they just changed the buttons around and called it "New!".

I think that's the issue with the industry in general. We have had basically all the modeling tools we've needed for years now, and the changes since then are mostly in the interface (to try and justify the added expense - and I usually HATE them), so they're getting desperate to get new money for minor changes. Kind of like in the motorcycling (sportbike) world, where the latest model year has only BNG (Bold New Graphics!) changes and nothing new mechanically.... but I digress...

HamsterNL · ‎Jan 14, 2019

@Patriot_1776 wrote:

I'd definitely look into it first and save yourselves some money.

...but we still don't have solid-body sweeps (something I'd pay extra for as a core feature and a TRUE enhancement)...

Did Creo 5 not introduce the Volume Helical Sweeps? Or are you asking for something else?

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 14, 2019

MMMM, close, but not quite. And close is only good for horseshoes and hand grenades, right? 🙂

What I want is the sweep tool having the ability to use a solid body instead of a section following a path I pre-define (wrapped curve, projected curve, curve via equation, etc.) not being stuck with a helix. I also want, like you can in the sweep tool, to be able to force the section (in this case, the tool), to have a constant normal with relation to a certain object. I don't see this functionality here, but maybe I'm missing it (don't think so but it's possible).

Would this new creo 5 tool work for most of the geometry I've had issues with? Yup. Will it work for ALL of the geometry I'd like to create? Nope. Getting better though. If that required an extra fee for a "machining" module that truly HAD all these capabilities, it'd be worth it.

BenLoosli · ‎Jan 14, 2019

Hand grenades are more fun than horseshoes!

bbrejcha · ‎Jan 11, 2019

Looks to me someone made a typo. That cost was the cost for purchase AAX in the past. With the new pricing structure it's billed per year and quite a bit less. Prob about 1.5k per year. Anyways I want my software to cost a lot ... makes me worth more 😉

Bart Brejcha

Design-engine.com

TomU · ‎Jan 11, 2019

I don't think it's a typo. Those same numbers are all over the place.

bbrejcha · ‎Jan 11, 2019

We have two seats of AAX and neither are that high. We do'nt sell software either and I can be corrected (happens seldom) what part of the country are you in? Whats your email address?

Bart Brejcha

Design-engine.com

TomU · ‎Jan 12, 2019

@bbrejcha,

I'm in Michigan but that's irrelevant. The pricing I listed is from EAC's website, one of PTC's larger VAR's (although the image below is from Nova Edge in CA.) The issue is not advanced assembly (now called "Top Down Design & Concurrent Engineering"), he's looking for "Advanced Surfacing & Additive Manufacturing" (which I think is the old "ISDX" + the new additive manufacturing.) PTC recently reworked their packages and those two items are only included in the "Creo Design Advanced Plus" and higher packages. See picture below:

Creo Packages.png

bbrejcha · ‎Jan 13, 2019

yea. your right. I was chatting w/ our VAR Friday night and mentioned this thread. He confirmed the price. If you want to know the truth, SW has 5 percent of the power of AAX

I guess design engine got one AAX license grandfathered in at a super discount and the other is the price you note. Im not that involved in accounting. What part of MI are you in? Im in Detroit 6 full weeks teaching AAX over the next 3 months.

Bart Brejcha

Design-engine.com

TomU · ‎Jan 14, 2019

@bbrejcha wrote:

What part of MI are you in?

Holland, MI. (Yes, Scott calls every now and then with training opportunities.)

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 14, 2019

They keep changing the license structure around so much who knows what the capabilities for the different packages are anymore???

That said, if the "Design Advanced Plus" in fact IS the old ISDX, then I can probably get by with the "Design Advanced", especially since unfortunately I've never had any of the ISDX training. I STILL think $6k for a one-year license is a total ripoff though especially since you used to be able to BUY a seat for about $4k.

I'm sure I can find some company out there willing to sell me an old beater computer with the software on it as part of their "downsizing" if I decide to go that route.

BenLoosli · ‎Jan 14, 2019

I don't think you can by a seat from a company that is keep some of their licenses. From my understanding, the whole company division must be sold in order for the software to be transferred, If not, I have 22 seats that are at Creo 2 or older that we are not using! We are currently maintaini9ng only 10 seats of Creo3+.

mbonka · ‎Jan 29, 2019

Prizes are for 1 year licences?

TomU · ‎Jan 29, 2019

@mbonka wrote:

Prizes are for 1 year licences?

Yes.

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 14, 2019

"Anyways I want my software to cost a lot ... makes me worth more"

LOL 🙂

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 14, 2019

Soooo, here's a recent quote for some S/W licenses for comparison.....

mcestnik · ‎Jan 15, 2019

License Capabilities for better understanding - unofficial!

STEVEG · ‎Jan 25, 2019

They actually have added features to Creo over the years. A few years ago we had 1 floating license of Manikin for a manufacturing guy. The next year they added Manikin to the licenses and now all our licenses has it. There are other modules as well but I don't remember what they are.

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 25, 2019

Probably because very few actually use Manikin and they couldn't actually sell is as a stand-alone module.

Yes, they've added a few features, but where you used to be able to BUY Pro/E (before the rename) for maybe $3,500, and then CHOOSE whether you wanted "maintenance" for $2,000/year, they're forcing you now to pay $6,000-$11,000 EVERY YEAR. what a rip-off. I wonder how large entities (like the US gov't) is taking that more than doubling in cost per year? I'm sure our licenses pre-date this new absurdity and we could tell them to pound sand and we'll just stay on creo 3 forever.

STEVEG · ‎Jan 25, 2019

I agree with you Frank. The other one that is now included is DEX (Design Exploration extension). And yes, not a very popular module. But as I said, there were other modules that were added as well.

BenLoosli · ‎Jan 25, 2019

We just got done working on our maintenance for 2019 with PTC. For us to convert from Engineer III bundle perpetual license to Design Advanced Plus subscription would cost us more money per license. The added modules are not ones that we currently see a need for, so there is no upside to doing the conversion. We will stick with perpetual licenses until the cost exceeds that of a subscription. Not sure that will ever happen as PTC keeps raising the cost of maintenance and subscription licenses.

To me, the whole concept of subscriptions is to get you a seat of software without the HUGE upfront cost. PTC seems to think they should charge per year what a license used to cost to buy! If the subscriptions were a lower cost, then I would switch, though PTC was unhappy that we wanted to keep 2 perpetual ones so we never lose access to our files and IP. When subscriptions were originally announced, I thought PTC said that they would protect their perpetual license users when the converted.

For a new company that has never had perpetual licenses, subscription is your only option, and you have now locked yourself into a lifetime contract with PTC if you need access to your CAD data.

Patriot_1776 · ‎Jan 25, 2019

Couldn't have said it better Ben! It's amazing they can get away with this extortion on an immense scale. I guess I'm going to try and find a company that's willing to sell a subsidiary that has a license. I'm interested in paying upfront for a perpetual license, not paying for a subscription.....FOREVER. I'm against Big(ger) Gov't, BUT, someone has to put this kind of abuse in it's place.

I think they slit their own throats with this one. All Dassalt (Solidworks) has to do is sell perpetual licenses with a reasonable maintenance cost per year (that you can opt out of) and they'll further eat PTC's lunch. The main reason people dump PTC products is money.

I found the $3,500 initial perpetual license cost for a seat of creo reasonable and though I'd opt out of the maintenance (updates/upgrades/pathetic support), even then at $2,000/yr for a company it was reasonable.

I'd like to see a chart of the downward marketshare of PTC from when S/W came out. I can blame my loss of a 5yr job with ConMed on their switch to S/W. Here's some interesting info:

https://www.nanalyze.com/2016/11/top-3d-modeling-software-companies/

Autodesk (NASDAQ:ADSK) – Market Cap $16 Billion

Dassault Systèmes (EPA:DSY) – Market Cap $18.25 Billion

Siemens (ETR:SIE) – Market Cap $87.34 Billion

PTC (NASDAQ:PTC) – Market Cap $5.49 Billion

Wow, just......wow....