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What do you think of a new platform for adepters?

pbartlett
1-Newbie

What do you think of a new platform for adepters?

Hello everyone,

In the whirlwind of changes that have occurred since the acquisition of
Arbortext by PTC, one of the last areas to touch has been this
discussion group. Now, PTC's IT department would like to move adepters
to use the same technology that every other PTC-hosted forum uses.

Before making the move, I'd like to explain the advantages and
disadvantages to the group and get your reactions. Personally, I think
the change would be an improvement even though I will be inconvenienced
until I get used to it, but if most of you are passionately opposed to
this change, I will bring that feedback back to my management and IT to
try to find another answer.

Let's start with the negatives first: the new forum would no longer use
email. You would be able to sign up for an RSS feed to receive messages
automatically, or you could go to a website to get the messages. Just
as now, you would be able to each message delivered immediately after it
was posted, or you could get a daily digest. To post, you would have to
go to the website. (I tried RSS once and didn't like it, but maybe I
was using the wrong tool. If we do agree to switch to the new forum,
I'll ask our IT department to suggest some tools.)

Some things would remain the same. We would move over the archive so
you would still have access to everything that has ever been posted.
All of the web-based capabilities of the current tool would still work
-- although the evidence suggests that only a few of you use those
web-based tools today.

On the positive side, there would be no more problems with subscribing
and unsubscribing. Because there's no email, the list would no longer
have to be "closed" to protect against spam. Everyone would be able to
subscribe and unsubscribe easily.

Please feel free to post your comments to this forum or send to me
privately.

Thanks,
PG
27 REPLIES 27

We are not allowed to use an RSS feed.

Ray Anderson
HTSI

Most corporate firewalls prevent RSS feeds...

Donald C. Krummel
Computer Systems Analyst, Senior
Lockheed Martin, Technical Publications
817-763-6336
-

If they didn't want to die,
they shouldn't have been under our bombs!


Lack of email encourages non-participation. It is much easier to post
questions and receive answers via email than it is to check a website.
Requiring a website visit is similar to having voicemail with no visual
indication of messages waiting. If you have to pick up your phone to
listen to the dial tone to find out you have messages, messages could go
for days without you responding.

RSS may work, but I am not sure how my company, being a defense
contractor behind a somewhat-Draconian firewall, would support frequent
RSS feeds. Somehow I doubt that that whatever tool is used would be as
user-friendly as Outlook. Even if PTC comes up with a tool for which
they optimize their RSS service, it doesn't mean that we, Lockheed
Martin, are going to use it, authorize its use or worse-yet (gasp!) buy
it. I don't know very much about RSS, having never used it. So I am
not sure how user-friendly it is. How easy is it to reply? Do you just
hit a "Reply" button and start typing and then hit a "Send" button? If
it is any more complicated than that, I repeat what I said above: it
will encourage non-participation.

We are blocked from accessing web email sites such as Hotmail, Yahoo,
EarthLink, Bellsouth, etc. etc. Although we can get RSS data from sites
internal to Lockheed, I am not sure how willing Lockheed Martin would be
to accepting RSS feeds 24 hours a day from an outside source.



I will not go to a web site to get or post messages and an RSS feed is
not allowed on this network.

"... the evidence suggests that only a few of you use those web-based
tools today". If you know this, then you probably also know how
unusable the "web based" archive is. Everyone tries once or twice and
then goes to their saved mail folder.

If PTC forums are as easy to use as the PTC web site is for Arbortext
support, then we are truly doomed to isolation from our fellow Arbortext
users.

-Andy

\ / Andy Esslinger F-22 Tech Order Data
_____-/\-_____ (817) 777 3047 LM Aero Box 748
\_\/_/ Fort Worth, TX 76101

> If PTC forums are as easy to use as the PTC web site is for Arbortext
> support, then we are truly doomed to isolation from our fellow
> Arbortext
> users.


Absolutely agree.

I no longer bother filing bugs because the PTC support site is so
atrocious. I usually just cross my fingers and hope somebody else
files it. PTC is, by far, the most difficult vendor to work with.
And Sun is supposedly a strategic partner!

If Adepters is switched to RSS, I probably won't bother to read it.


Steven Cogorno
Sun Microsystems

I'd prefer a website with an RSS feed to the email list, but the website
has to be a lot better than the current mailing list archives, which are
slow, hard to navigate, and difficult to search through.

Would it be possible to do a combination, like Yahoo! groups, where
those who want email can get it and those that want to use the website
can do so?

Steve

I for one would participate less. Email allows me to glance, responding when I'm not too busy.


I also absolutely agree. I doubt
my company would encourage RSS feeds.




And while I lack the time or expertise
to answer most questions, I do read and learn, however, I can pretty much
guarantee I would end up not going to a web site (make that 100% certainty
if the web site is not easy to use).




I want to stress that I am not one of
the power users of the user group, but from the sound of it, if/when it
moves, it w ill be difficult for me to stay connected to other Arbortext
users.




Kevin Mitchell

Senior Programmer/Analyst










<table width="100%">
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<td width="40%">Steven Cogorno <steven.cogorno@sun.com>


Sent by: Steven.Cogorno@Sun.COM
07/12/2006 03:14 PM
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<td valign="top">Re: What do you think of
a new platform for adepters?
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<tt>> If PTC forums are as easy to use as the PTC web
site is for Arbortext

> support, then we are truly doomed to isolation from our fellow

> Arbortext

> users.





Absolutely agree.



I no longer bother filing bugs because the PTC support site is so

atrocious. I usually just cross my fingers and hope somebody else


files it. PTC is, by far, the most difficult vendor to work with.


And Sun is supposedly a strategic partner!



If Adepters is switched to RSS, I probably won't bother to read it.





Steven Cogorno

Sun Microsystems




class=641242120-12072006>I also have to agree. It is tremendously helpful to
read the issues and solutions offered up by the group, but I doubt I would have
time to do it online.Also, I do not know if my company would allow
external RSS feeds.

class=641242120-12072006>

class=641242120-12072006>
Debra Ashley
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=2>Technology Engineer
face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=2>Boeing Tech Pubs
face=Wingdings color=#000080>( face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=2>(405) 610-3543

-face="Times New Roman" color=#000080 size=2>face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=2> debra.k.ashley@boeing.com







From: Kevin.M.Mitchell@us.ul.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006
3:20 PM
To: adepters@arbortext.com
Cc:
Steven.Cogorno@Sun.COM
Subject: Re: What do you think of a new
platform for adepters?



I also absolutely agree. I
doubt my company would encourage RSS feeds.


And while I lack the time or expertise to answer most questions, I do
read and learn, however, I can pretty much guarantee I would end up not going to
a web site (make that 100% certainty if the web site is not easy to use).


I want to stress that I am not one
of the power users of the user group, but from the sound of it, if/when it
moves, it w ill be difficult for me to stay connected to other Arbortext users.


Kevin Mitchell
face=sans-serif size=2>Senior Programmer/Analyst






<table width="100%">

<tr valign="top">
<td width="40%">Steven Cogorno
<steven.cogorno@sun.com>

Sent by: Steven.Cogorno@Sun.COM
07/12/2006 03:14 PM
<table border="1">

<tr valign="top">
<td bgcolor="white">
Please respond
to
<adepters@arbortext.com>
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<td valign="top">adepters@arbortext.com
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Subject

<td valign="top">Re: What do you think of
a new platform for adepters?
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size=2><tt>> If PTC forums are as easy to use as the PTC web site is for
Arbortext
> support, then we are truly doomed to isolation from our fellow

> Arbortext
> users.


Absolutely agree.

I no
longer bother filing bugs because the PTC support site is so

atrocious. I usually just cross my fingers and hope somebody
else
files it. PTC is, by far, the most difficult vendor to work
with.
And Sun is supposedly a strategic partner!

If Adepters
is switched to RSS, I probably won't bother to read it.


Steven
Cogorno
Sun Microsystems


>> To unsubscribe from
the list, send an email to listmanager@maillist.arbortext.com with the following
in the body: unsubscribe adepters - For additional information on
the adepters list (how to subscribe or unsubscribe etc), send an email to:
listmanager@maillist.arbortext.com with the following in the body: info Adepters
- You may also go to forums.arbortext.com, enter the
Adepters folder and change your subscription options and preferences.>>

</tt>


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Hi PG,

I've been using this forum for years and as a current PTC employee, I
think PTC owes it to the list to not change anything in ways of format.
Frankly, the PTC forums are not easy to use and many have suggested they
use email format on them as well because of this. No one wants to keep
checking a website; it wastes valuable time and a lot of us that are
behind firewalls at customer sites can't get the RSS feeds. Most, if not
all of the consultants use company email and just by typing in the
distribution list we can reach the other consultants, and that is in
place today.

JMHO
Kristina

Hi PG--

From a technical standpoint, I don't think there would be any problem for me accessing an RSS feed from my work computer. But if such a system means that people like Ed and Andy wouldn't be participating, then it significantly reduces the value of the forum for us all, so I'd be against the change for that reason alone.

Adepters is an incredibly valuable resource for us users, so I'm glad you posted this question--it shows that you are thinking about the possible impact of the change, and how to maximize gains and minimize losses. Unfortunately, it's hard to see how to preserve the value of the forum without keeping some sort of email-based system. If you go with RSS + Web, we lose the people behind firewalls who can't receive RSS feeds. If you go with just web (no RSS), we probably lose even more people just because many people won't necessarily take the time to check the web site for updates if they don't have a "ping" to let them know there's something new.

I wonder if there would be a way to make both sides happy by going to a web-based system (to make PTC happy) that includes an email gateway to let people interact via email if they want to (to make us happy). In the old Usenet days, there were many newsgroups that were mirrored with associated listservs, so you could read and post messages either via newsreader software or via email. Maybe something similar could work here, so that those of us who are able to could monitor an RSS feed, while those who can't receive RSS could still participate through the email gateway.

I can't imagine Arbortext users are the only PTC customers who have restrictions on RSS feeds. I'd be curious to know what happens for Pro/Engineer users who are behind similar firewalls? Does PTC just write those users off w.r.t. forum participation, or have they figured out a way to make it easy for them to participate in spite of the RSS limitations?

--Clay

I agree with the fact that the current adepters archive site is not very usable (it also seems very delayed, though I may be using it incorrectly... the most recent post I see is Jun 10, 2006).

About a year and a half back, I switched to using gmail solely for my Adepters archive, and have been very happy with it.


My main argument for email is the ease of posting combined with the ability to search (in this case, using google's search engine). I do not have any RSS feed restrictions (that I am aware of) but I would probably still attempt to tie such a feed into gmail since it has worked so very well for me, especially with the way threads are handled, and of course search.


Change is inevitable, but I feel I would lose a lot if the new system is not as easy to use as the current, email-based approach.

Keith Berard
XML Systems Analyst
Milliman Care Guidelines LLC, A Milliman Company

401 Second Avenue South, Suite 400
Seattle, WA 98104
Tel +1 206 381.8166
keith.berard@milliman.com
http://www.careguidelines.com/


Delivering evidence-based knowledge at the point of care

On 7/12/06, Esslinger, Andy W <-
> wrote:

I will not go to a web site to get or post messages and an RSS feed is

not allowed on this network.

"... the evidence suggests that only a few of you use those web-based
tools today".If you know this, then you probably also know how
unusable the "web based" archive is. Everyone tries once or twice and

then goes to their saved mail folder.

If PTC forums are as easy to use as the PTC web site is for Arbortext
support, then we are truly doomed to isolation from our fellow Arbortext
users.

-Andy


\/ Andy EsslingerF-22 Tech Order Data
_____-/\-_____(817) 777 3047LM Aero Box 748
\_\/_/Fort Worth, TX 76101

I agree with the perspectives represented here:

(1) the existing Adepters web tools are difficult to use for retrieving
archived posts
(2) the PTC-hosted pages have waaaay too much text with important links
buried therein
(3) RSS feeds may not be a solution for some Adepters heavy hitters, ouch
(4) change can be good, but we need easy tools for pinging when new
messages arrive, replying, and searching




"Keith Berard" <keith.berard@milliman.com>
Sent by: -
07/12/2006 03:07 PM
Please respond to
<adepters@arbortext.com>


To
adepters@arbortext.com
cc

Subject
Re: What do you think of a new platform for adepters?






I agree with the fact that the current adepters archive site is not very
usable (it also seems very delayed, though I may be using it
incorrectly... the most recent post I see is Jun 10, 2006).

About a year and a half back, I switched to using gmail solely for my
Adepters archive, and have been very happy with it.

My main argument for email is the ease of posting combined with the
ability to search (in this case, using google's search engine). I do not
have any RSS feed restrictions (that I am aware of) but I would probably
still attempt to tie such a feed into gmail since it has worked so very
well for me, especially with the way threads are handled, and of course
search.

Change is inevitable, but I feel I would lose a lot if the new system is
not as easy to use as the current, email-based approach.

Keith Berard
XML Systems Analyst
Milliman Care Guidelines LLC, A Milliman Company
401 Second Avenue South, Suite 400
Seattle, WA 98104
Tel +1 206 381.8166
keith.berard@milliman.com
http://www.careguidelines.com/

Delivering evidence-based knowledge at the point of care

The overwhelming response both to the list and to me privately has been
to keep the email system in place.

The idea of transitioning to Yahoo! instead of ptc.com is a worthy
alternative. (Personally, I like that idea.) I don't know how we'd
move the archives -- perhaps someone has their own?

Thanks,
PG

RSS feeds aren't allowed here either. That's an NRC corporate IT policy
that I wouldn't have any hope of getting changed.

I also must second Andy's comment about the current web archive. I
never had much success in finding anything in it. My current personal
Adepters archive is now approaching 8,000 messages, going back to 2002.
I also have off-line archives of Adepters messages going back to 1996.

The PTC web site has made finding all Arbortext-related information more
time-consuming and in some cases I've run into dead ends. I have had
two rather unpleasant experiences with PTC Customer Service
representatives who not only weren't helpful, but very insulting in the
process.

I've just read Clay's message and I agree with his points as well. I
hope PG can forstall any changes for the near future, until a more
suitable solution can be found. If the only "positive" that can be
attributed to changing Adepters is "no more problems with subscribing
and unsubscribing", that doesn't help me... I subscribed once and I
wasn't planning on unsubscribing!

David

David S. Taylor

Project Manager, Structured Information
Institute for Research in Construction
National Research Council Canada
Bldg. M-23A, Room 239
1200 Montreal Road, Ottawa, ON K1A 0R6

PG,

Are you asking us to share e-mail archives?

I have an adepters.pst file for MS Outlook that goes back to August
1998. I had a Unix box before that, but my Unix mail archive is long
gone.

I think that there are assorted duplicates and a few nulls that resulted
when the copmany changed changed from Netscape mail to MS Outlook.

Does anyone else have more? In what format?

-Andy

\ / Andy Esslinger F-22 Tech Order Data
_____-/\-_____ (817) 777 3047 LM Aero Box 748
\_\/_/ Fort Worth, TX 76101

As I am on the other side of the planet from most of you, it seems that
all of you responded to this while I was asleep. I'd also like to
respond to this; as they say "better late than never"...

I would be able to use the RSS feed, but if, as someone mentioned, some
users behind Draconian firewalls stop posting, post less, or even if
their posts are delayed as compared to current response times, it makes
Adepters less valuable to the group as a whole. I know that if I were
unable to see the RSS feed it would be very unlikely that I would check
the web site each day.

I do, however, appreciate the archives being stored online. For the
first 2 years or so that I used Adepters I was unable to access even
somewhat recent posts. Then some miracle occurred and I have since been
able to search and view all posts recent and ancient. I would certainly
not call the archives user-friendly, but at least it seems to work. I
don't like to search through email, so the archive is very important to
me. I haven't used any of the other PTC forums, so I can't say what they
are like, but if they are like PTC's current support pages, I doubt I
would ever be able to find what I was looking for.

--
Brian Jensen

Kyoshinsha Co. Ltd.
brian@kik.co.jp
2-9-5 Morinomiya-chuo Chuo-ku
Osaka 540-0003 Japan
Tel: 81-6-6941-8881
Fax: 81-6-6941-1053


Bartlett, PG wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> In the whirlwind of changes that have occurred since the acquisition of
> Arbortext by PTC, one of the last areas to touch has been this
> discussion group. Now, PTC's IT department would like to move adepters
> to use the same technology that every other PTC-hosted forum uses.
>
> Before making the move, I'd like to explain the advantages and
> disadvantages to the group and get your reactions. Personally, I think
> the change would be an improvement even though I will be inconvenienced
> until I get used to it, but if most of you are passionately opposed to
> this change, I will bring that feedback back to my management and IT to
> try to find another answer.
>
> Let's start with the negatives first: the new forum would no longer use
> email. You would be able to sign up for an RSS feed to receive messages
> automatically, or you could go to a website to get the messages. Just
> as now, you would be able to each message delivered immediately after it
> was posted, or you could get a daily digest. To post, you would have to
> go to the website. (I tried RSS once and didn't like it, but maybe I
> was using the wrong tool. If we do agree to switch to the new forum,
> I'll ask our IT department to suggest some tools.)
>
> Some things would remain the same. We would move over the archive so
> you would still have access to everything that has ever been posted.
> All of the web-based capabilities of the current tool would still work
> -- although the evidence suggests that only a few of you use those
> web-based tools today.
>
> On the positive side, there would be no more problems with subscribing
> and unsubscribing. Because there's no email, the list would no longer
> have to be "closed" to protect against spam. Everyone would be able to
> subscribe and unsubscribe easily.
>
> Please feel free to post your comments to this forum or send to me
> privately.
>
> Thanks,
> PG
>
>
lynn
1-Newbie
(To:pbartlett)

PG,
I have not verified the CSC policy on an RSS feed just yet. However with
the paranoia for network security, I would strongly doubt that CSC would
allow it.
Going to a web page to see if anyone has posted a message, well I guess I'd
be another one who becomes an infrequent Adepter. As Clay or one of the
other earlier responders stated, I take a look at the message when it comes
in. There are times I really don't have the time to respond. Having to
routinely go out to see if there are posts, wasteful.
This is a chance for PTC to PROVE they listen to their customers, even if we
are a small segment of their business. From what I have read, for various
and sundry reasons, migrating from the current email approach isn't all that
popular.
Very few are of the negative comments relate to being adverse to changing to
something better. This does not appear to be a better solution. I can
understand the PTC IT people wanting everyone to march to the same drum. So
maybe they need to look at other options for PTC. Perhaps PTC should query
their other user groups and ask what those users think of the existing
method.
Lynn

Hi PG,

I don't post very often but I do read the mail from the list daily to
determine whenever a topic is applicable to what I'm doing. I'm not sure
a website or RSS feed would serve my own interests very well. Basically,
what it comes down to is that we're behind a restrictive firewall and
sites such as Yahoo Groups and MSN are all prohibited. Using any live
feed would certainly be frowned upon. SGML information is limited enough
and I wouldn't like to see my main source of information dry up by
moving it to some format I can't access.

Admittedly there are some things I don't like about the list, such as
the "out of office" spam, but that could be resolved. Maybe the
improvement needs to be in accessing the list, and improving it, rather
than moving it.

Greg
🙂

Mr. Gregory B. MacKenzie B.F.A.
Programmer II
Technical Publications
L-3 Communications Electronic Systems Inc.

I would have to agree with everyone else's findings here.

The archives are difficult to use, I have PST folders from 1999, so this
works itself out fine.

Honestly, if subscribing/unsubscribing is the biggest complaint of a mailing
list, you're doing something right. Adepters has consistently been one of
the best, most useful, friendliest, and easiest-to-use mailing lists I've
been on.

The PTC website leaves WAY too much to be desired. I would love to sick
Jakob Nielsen on whomever put that mess together. If "integration" is a
Euphemism for "buried", then yes, they've successfully integrated Arbortext
Information into their existing website.

IT policy at my organization doesn't currently allow RSS feeds of any kind.
I don't see moving to a web-only format as an improvement, as have most
others on this list. It loses the immediacy of the mailing list, and since
most of us can't get RSS feeds, it's effectiveness.

Honestly, we've "enjoyed" enough change for a while. From what I've heard
of the PTC forums, they'd be doing their customers a favor by switching to
the Arbortext method of running a user forum. Shouldn't any successful
acquisition involve leveraging best-practices from the organization being
purchased? I have had nothing but praise and accolades for Arbortext's
customer support, from filing web cases and phone contacts, right on down to
the adepters list.

Sometimes I wonder if PTC really sees the value in what they've purchased.
I know we've tried to tell them. I'd like to believe they're listening.

-Jason A. Buss

Although I am normally a quiet observer on this listserve, I must concur
with most of the adepters on this. Having an immediate conversation with
other users around the world is why I subscribe. If I had to go to a web
site to look for new posting, I would probably never visit it. And
although I do not post often, it does not mean I do not see what is
going on. This venue is a great way for me to keep up to speed with
issues other users are having and often provides me with a sanity check.

Gary Nadeau
Tech Lead - Data Support
Maintenance Information Systems
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems - St. Louis

PG
I am in the same thought mode as Gary. Reading the various responses
that have passed since yesterday, it appears that we are not the only
ones. The major contributors and "Heavy Hitters" (yes Lynn and Ed I am
talking of persons like you) appear to be ready to either go to a
separate venue or just drop out. My IT group haven't got back to me yet
on the feed and firewall interaction so I can not address that. Quite
probably the world will lose an important forum.

John T. Groves
W R Systems, LTD.
2500 Almeda Ave
Suite 214
Norfolk, VA 23513-2403
Ph. 757.858.6000 ext 442

All,

Thank you for all the feedback. I agree with the consensus of the group
and will be as stubborn and outspoken as necessary to preserve the
functionality that contributes to this group's success.

I have summarized your comments to PTC's IT and Marketing departments
and have put their plan on hold.

I'm hopeful that your opinions will have the desired effect. But if
not, and if the consensus of the group is to move to a third-party host,
then I'm sure that everyone will come along if we can. Since some
firewalls block access to Yahoo!, we should find something else that
works for everyone.

But let's jump off that bridge if we come to it. And if we do, I'll go
first.

Thanks,
PG

PG,

I don't know about the other members of this group, but I for one would
prefer you "cross" that bridge when you come to it rather than "jump off".
😄

Like Ed the other day, I was weak on RSS, so I did some homework and found
this link for various options of RSS software should that be the direction
we go. Which I sincerely hope not.

http://www.rss-specifications.com/rss-readers.htm

Lynn

At least in my case, if we do move to some "banned" forum, I have a
PDA/smartphone with which I could still get access, even at work.

Although the newer version has already been blacklisted by our IT
organization, Google Desktop is fairly cool.

I don't expect it helps those who are behind highly secure firewalls or
otherwise prohibited from RSS feeds. However, the gadgets make it fairly
easy to follow posts to various lists in real time.

It comes in handy to keep track of several news sites and geeky blogs. I
hear Google Home Page has similar features; but again one must consciously
go out to a web site.

I like the recommendations for PTC to evaluate existing user forums and
glean the best from both worlds.

Jason






Lynn Hales <lhales@csc.com>
07/14/2006 06:32 AM
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I have to agree with Gary on this. While I am not knowlegable about a
lot of the topics discussed, I read it daily and if something piques my
interest, I check it out. Not to mention the fact that there are some
pretty high powered brains I get to pick occassionally.
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