Sketcher vs Intent manager

[ptc-1641498]

Hello Everyone,



I have been away from pro-e for a while 2000i2 and now back using fulltime,
what would you recommend sketcher or intent manager.

Are both of these still being developed, or is development only on intent
manager.



Best regards

Stephen

[dgschaefer]

Intent manager is part of sketcher, so your question is kind of like
saying "What should I get on my new car, brakes or ABS?" 😄 Just like
ABS are a more sophisticated braking system, Intent Manager is a more
sophisticated sketcher.

Although you can turn it off (and some long time users insist they are
better without it), I would highly recommend that you leave intent
manager on. Once you are used to it you won't be able to live without
it. I've been a Pro|E user for over 11 years, back to Rev. 16, and
wouldn't sketch without it.

I think that it has existed since before 20001 as well. Wasn't Intent
Manager introduced sometime around Rev. 20?

Doug Schaefer

[mike_pavese]

I too am curious regarding this question. I started with Proback at v20 and followed through to now WF2. For me, more times than not, I use sketcher WITHOUT Intent Manager ON, because I want my sketch a specific way especially if I am using a somewhat complex sketch.

I am curious what others have to say, I never want to be too closed minded, maybe I need to revisit Intent Manager more often.

Mike

In Reply to:

Hello Everyone,



I have been away from pro-e for a while 2000i2 and now back using fulltime,
what would you recommend sketcher or intent manager.

Are both of these still being developed, or is development only on intent
manager.



Best regards

Stephen

[eaolsen]

In my opinion, Intent Manager was one of the best improvements that has ever
been made to ProE. It took a real weakness of the software and made it into
a strength. In the process, I don't think they even screwed anything else
up. It makes me think that PTC IS capable of making robust, meaningful
improvements without giving up (or messing up) current functionality.

Erik Olsen


_____

[ptc-2032585]

Welllllllllll....let's not go overboard on compliments, since PTC might be watching :)

IMO Intent Manager is EXCELLENT and I wouldn't want to live without it anymore.

But sometimes....GRRRRR...

"Cannot reference additional 3D geometry" ring a bell anywhere?

Or how about when you go to a sketch and INTENT MANAGER is NOT available for some mysterious reason....ARGHHH.

But like I originally replied, it serves me 99.9999999% of the time so I won't complain....too loud.

Rui



Erik Olsen wrote:@page Section1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; TEXT-DECORATION: none; mso-style-type: personal } SPAN.EmailStyle18 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 }In my opinion, Intent Managerwas one of the best improvements that has ever been made to ProE. It took a real weakness of the software and made it into a strength. In the process, I don't think they even screwed anything else up. It makes me think that PTC IS capable of making robust, meaningful improvements without giving up (or messing up) current functionality. Erik Olsen

[JonathanHodgson]

I've been using Pro/E since about 2002 (2000 -> 2000i^2 -> WF2), and
I've just tried turning off the Intent Manager to find out what you guys
are talking about!

Sketcher with Intent Manager has always seemed pretty good to me.
Occasionally you need to exaggerate your shape, or use Tab and
right-click/Shift+right-click to control the constraints while you're
sketching (no, I *never* want to snap to the Midpoint of a line!) but
it's generally easy to ensure that the only constraints created are
those you want. Those that aren't created can be added later, and I
only rarely have a sketch which won't resolve even though the
constraints are valid. Maybe next time that happens I'll try turning IM
off...

Good modelling practice says that you never leave grey (gray if you're
reading this 8 hours behind me) constraints or dimensions, and that's
about it. If your sketch is getting so complex that you're having
difficulty, you may want to consider more, simpler features (though I've
seen newbies create the entire profile of a part in SwIM, apparently
without problems, before we bashed that habit out of them!)

Regards,
Jonathan

[ptc-694634]

I haven't heard this topic come up in a long time…In my opinion the best analogy would be do you prefer to drive a standard or an automatic car? I personally prefer to tell the system how I would like it to behave. There is no way the system can tell me how I intend do develop and constraint my sketch. However, intent manager is very helpful in enforcing stubborn constraints and speeding up simple sketches…So my two cents is I use both and love the ability to turn off intent manager when I like.

BTW I have been using Pro since v19 and if I remember intent manager came in v2000i

Andy Ley

CAD Supervisor

Keilhauer

<u>www.keilhauer.com</u>

[wfalco]

Andy,

Thank you. I agree.

I have great breaks.....and an emergency break.

WayneF

[wfalco]

Rui,

Could not resist chiming in oon your comments.

I have found that when you can not add additional 3d geometry - chances are really good you are dealing with independent copied stuff. And the when its not available and reverts to a non-intentent manager? I've seen that happen with text in sketches that may have overwhelmed its ability to know our intent. Actually some do not realize that text is actually forgiving and will let you "pass go and collect 200 dollars" (exit sketch with no dimensions or contraints).

2 great points.

WayneF

[wfalco]

Spell check can care less if I mispell breaks. And I need one.

[eaolsen]

Rui-

The "Cannot reference additional 3D geometry" is extremely frustrating. The
only time that I have ever seen this message is when redefining a feature
that is either the parent or child of a mirror. If I remove the mirror then
I can reference any geometry that I like. This is one of several reasons
that I try to avoid using mirror. Maybe this is something that IM broke, or
maybe it is limitations of dependent features.

Erik Olsen


_____

[JOES]

As all the CAD platforms out there mature they seem like they are becoming
very similar. One adds some function, the others adopt it. PTC has been a
bit behind the curve on a lot of stuff. But Pro/E's sketcher (with it's
Intent Manager) is the one place (in my opinion) Pro/E blows them all away.
At least from what I've seen in Catia, Solidworks, & Inventor. It could be
they have newer versions that have improved but it seemed to me that their
sketchers were at where Pro/E was at years ago.

Again, it's just my opinion.

Regards,
Joe S.

[ksauter]

Just RMB when a new constraint highlights, and pro will put a line through
it and disable it. Very, very handy, and it greatly lessens the grief
factor. Doesn't work without intent manager.

Ken Sauter
Sauter Industrial Design
3352 Broadway Blvd #414
Garland, TX 75043
972-226-1300
214-292-8732 fax
214-724-9100 cell
www.sauterindustrialdesign.com

[dgschaefer]

As others have said, the "Cannot reference additional 3D geometry" is
the result of a dependant copy. The error message could be better, for
sure.

This is not an intent manager thing, this happened back in the
pre-intent manager days too, IIRC.

My biggest intent manager gripe is 'weak' dims that are stronger than
'strong' dims. You know, add your own dimension or constraint and Pro|E
wants to delete everything BUT that weak dim. to resolve the sketch.
Make the weak dim strong and add the same dimension and suddenly it's an
option for deleting. Maybe 'weak' really means invisible ...

Still, I love intent manager and the control if gives me over my
sketches.

Doug Schaefer

[dgschaefer]

Is it just me, or did this thread get forked into two threads, one on
the PTCUser list and one here on ProeCAD? I don't think I did it, but
maybe, Any way ...

Andy - People who don't like Intent Manger usually look at me like I
have a weasel growing from my scalp when I say this, but the reason I
like intent manager is that it gives me the ability to tell the system
what I want. Without it, I cannot add the constraints I want. I have
to try to draw the sketch in a way that Pro|E assumes the constraints I
want when I hit regenerate. It's a skill that takes a bit to master and
until you have mastered it, it'll drive you nuts. I find that many
times sketches made with Intent Manger turned off end up with extra dims
that aren't necessary because the user gave up on getting Pro|E to
assume that equal constraint or symmetry. Not always, but more often
than when using Intent Manger.

With Intent Manager I draw an exaggerated shape with the right number of
entities and then go about adding the constraints I need to make it
work. I sometimes have to fight with Pro|E as it adds things or refuses
to delete the right things, but I generally have more control.

Anyway, to each his own.

Doug Schaefer

[A.DelNegro]

I second Doug's opinion. I've been around since R17 and I can say I
turned on intent manager when it appeared and haven't turned it off
since. I can remember fighting the old system of regenerating after
constraining and when the sketch failed, you had to figure out why Pro
couldn't understand you. VERY frustrating! With IM, the sketch is
always constrained. You just have to make sure its constrained the way
YOU want it to be. IM gives better feedback, and gives it after every
change.



Tony

[ptc-694634]

First of all I want to apologies for crossing over to this list I am not
quite sure how it happened. I thought I was replying to the first post.
I don't usually reply I just sit back in the shadows and read all the
useful information on here.

The biggest point that I was trying to make is that intent manager or no
intent manager it comes down to use preference and mine just so
happeneds to be a bit of both and I like the option. I have never had a
hard time getting my sketches constrained the way I want but that's me.

I also feel that for new users intent manager helps to promote poor
modeling habits as I see all the time...that just comes down to better
training I guess.

Anyways sorry again for crossing the threads.

[ptc-694634]

For those interested in this thread.

[DaveEngel]

Have you seen the Sketcher/Intent manager in Wildfire 4.0?!



It can shade closed sections, quickly show you where entities intersect and the Feature Requirements” button can help you figure out what is wrong with your sketch.



Dave

[ptc-141274]

Now that is a nice feature. Will it show you where you have an entity
on top of another one?

Doug

[tgiauque]

Judging by your screenshot, this looks like a terrific idea, implemented at about 80% efficiency, which is about right for most new PTC stuff. (Sorry, PTC guys, but it's true.) What kind of use is the "Basic requirements" warning? What does that mean? If I were to encounter this while working in Sketcher, it would tell me nothing useful. That's right up there with "feature cannot be created."

I assume that you can click on the "Intersecting entities" line and they'll highlight for you, so that you know where they are, yes?

Okay, I guess that's 75% efficiency, since three of the four "warning" lines are somewhat self-explanatory.

[DaveEngel]

This is part of what they apparently callthe sketcher diagnostic tools in WF4. (See the new buttons). One to show closed sections, one to show intersecting entities, one to show unattached ends and one to run the diagnostics box. Reminds me of a spell checker.

Anyway, I've always been a fan of Intent manager.

[Netesh]

Tim,

Have you downloaded Wildfire 4.0 Pre-production and tested the sketcher
diagnostic tools we've added? I would be very interested in hearing your
feedback (or anyone else's) on what other diagnostics are required.

FYI, we added the following diagnostics in sketcher:

Shading Closed Loops
Highlighting Open Ends
Highlighting overlapping and intersecting entities
Feature Requirements (this dialog posted earlier)



Thank You,



Netesh Gohil
Director of Product Management
Pro/ENGINEER
PTC
973-631-6197




<">http://www.ptc.com/company/tl/index.htm>

[ptc-294120]

Also, there is every once in a while that you can't get into sketcher to
redefine because the sketch is invalid... maybe a line has reversed or gone
to a 0 length or something, but it won't let you in to fix it.

But over-all, I can't see not using intent manager. It makes it way easier
to control your references.

Dave

[ptc-1641498]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, almost all of you seem to be using
intent manager.



Best regards

Stephen

[dgallup]

The first couple of iterations of intent manager were pretty terrible & I always left it off. As someone who started with R2 in 1989 I didn't need any d@m# software making decisions for me. With WF2 however, it mostly works pretty well & I leave it on by default. Every once in a while I fight with it and end up turning it off for a sketch. It is usually when I have to redefine someone else's overly complex sketch. I am a big fan of several simple sketches/features rather than one complex section.

[jeffsampson]

I'll put my 2¢ in on the topic, if nothing else, to balance the scales a
bit. 😉

I HATE Intent Manager, especially in WF3. Granted it does have some
useful features, but overall I find myself fighting it more than plain
sketcher. Now I've been on Pro since rev 9, so I did have plenty of
time to get used to life without IM. I also despise PTC for continually
making certain features only available in IM and not in sketcher.

- Why would I want some programmer guessing at my intent? I KNOW my
intent and that's what I sketch.
- Why should I have to purposely poorly sketch (exaggerate your
sketch) to "fool" IM? I sketch what I want it to be not what I don't.
- I do a lot of surfacing and odd shaped sketches with very few
dimensions (lots of tangencies) and find IM more cumbersome.

What I wish PTC had done is made constraint manager available in plain
sketcher. Then I could apply the constraints I want any time I want.

My latest big peeve is one I posted a month or so ago for WF3, which is
that for existing features, the sketch setup menu is only available when
you have intent manager on. Now if a sketch is unregenerateable (due to
lost references - sound familiar Rui?), you cannot get into it because
regeneration is required to enter IM, and IM is required to enter
sketcher setup! Any user interface person with half a brain can figure
out that they need a button on the dashboard right next to the one for
"SKETCH" that says "SKETCH SETUP".

For Kenneth: You can disable constraints actively in plain sketcher
without having to regenerate. If you pick "constraints" in the menu,
the current set of constraints will show and you can click and disable
the ones you don't want. You do have to click it again to see what new
constraints were created by your disabling others.

Yes IM has some powerful helps, and can be very handy. But I do quite
well without it.

Jeff

--
Jeff Sampson Engineering
-

>Subject: Sketcher vs Intent manager
>
>Just RMB when a new constraint highlights, and pro will put a line through
>it and disable it. Very, very handy, and it greatly lessens the grief
>factor. Doesn't work without intent manager.
>
>Ken Sauter
>Sauter Industrial Design
>3352 Broadway Blvd #414
>Garland, TX 75043
>972-226-1300
>214-292-8732 fax
>214-724-9100 cell
>www.sauterindustrialdesign.com

[dgschaefer]

"What I wish PTC had done is made constraint manager available in plain
sketcher. Then I could apply the constraints I want any time I want."

Jeff - You hit the nail on the head. I prefer IM (never turn it off,
actually) but if I could sketch without assumptions (like non-IM
sketcher) and then add both dimensions AND constraints, most of the
benefit of IM would be gone.

Either way, you have to learn how to sketch for Pro|E./ Without IM, you
need to master the skill of creating a sketch where Pro|E will assume
and add the constraints you want (H, V, Tan, equal, etc). With IM you
have to master the skill of sketching in an exaggerated manner to
prevent Pro|E from making assumption that you don't want and that will
be hard to get rid off. Either way you have to master the technique.

Doug Schaefer

[ehill]

I felt this way for some time as well, when IM was first introduced.
The biggest thing it brought to the table was the ability to assign a
constraint of your choosing. Previously, you had to *know* how Pro/E
was going to respond to get the results you wanted. That used to
practically be the focus of the sketching section of the Foundation
class, because it was very difficult for new users to get a handle on.
Can you say SADR? That's still true to a lesser extent, but now you are
shown what is happening immmediately, and can directly add/delete
entities to get what you want instead of having to start over with a
different "sketching philosophy."



Now 6 years later, I have run across only a handful of sketches where I
had to turn off IM to get what I wanted. Every time I do, it hits me
what a clunky interface we had to use all those years ago, and how much
quicker and easier it is to sketch using IM. Underdimensioned sketch?
Unresolved section? Unregenerate? Yikes.



Best Regards,

[lylebeidler]

I had mentioned this to someone in a private reply, but maybe I should share
it with the whole group.



One of the common complaints I've heard in this discussion is that Sketcher
assumes constraints you don't want. There are a couple really usefull tips:

1) you can turn off which constraints IM will assume (ie one user said that
he NEVER wants to snap to a midpoint) by going (in Sketcher) Sketch >
Options > Constraint tab - uncheck the constraints you DON'T want IM to
assume.



2) I believe #1 only works for the current session. To save it for
subsequent sessions, it's several config options:

SKETCHER_COLLINEAR_SKAMPS

SKETCHER_EQUAL_LENGTH_SKAMPS
SKETCHER_EQUAL_RADII_SKAMPS

SKETCHER_LINEUP_HOR_SKAMPS
SKETCHER_LINEUP_VER_SKAMPS

SKETCHER_MIDPOINT_SKAMPS
SKETCHER_PARALLEL_SKAMPS

SKETCHER_PERPENDICULAR_SKAMPS

SKETCHER_POINT_ON_ENTITY_SKAMPS

SKETCHER_SAME_POINT_SKAMPS

SKETCHER_SYMMETRIC_SKAMPS

SKETCHER_TANGENT_SKAMPS



Pick whichever you want, set it to "no"

(thanks to Olaf Corten's proesite.com for this list)



3) Don't forget that setting the selection filter to "Constraints" makes it
a HECK of a lot easier to get rid of the ones you don't want.



Personally, I love the control that IM gives me - I tell it what to assume,
and it does the mouse work for me.

--



Lyle Beidler
MGS Inc
178 Muddy Creek Church Rd
Denver PA 17517
717-336-7528
Fax 717-336-0514
-