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09-04-2018
04:15 PM

09-04-2018
04:15 PM

Hello everybody,

I wonder how can I make a function (for torque motors and others) like this:

f(theta) = g(theta) * theta

where

- theta = an input from the analysis (in my case the angle of a shaft) that I take from a measure,
- g() = a points/graph with theta for x-coordinate.

I have the file with points but I don't know how to insert the datas )points from file) in the function f(x).

Thanks

Bye

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09-14-2018
08:49 AM

09-14-2018
08:49 AM

Once we understand "the flywheel inertia mystery", I returned on the main question in a more general overview.

If one have the function g expressed in a closed form [eg: **g(x,y)= f(x)*exp(4y-5)**; **f(x)=sin(x)** ] you don't have problems. One can insert the expression inside the "function type: user defined" tab.

One has problems when you have the function f(x) not in a closed form, but with a dots graph. You can't multiply a graph for a function.

I found a workaround:

- add to the assembly a "fake component" with its own motion axis,
- attribute to that one a torque motor defined with a table and on the domain you want,
- make a netload measure on the fake torque motor,
- now you have the function f(x) that you can insert in a user defined fuction,
- make attention to the units! Inside the definition of g you may adjust with some constant the value of f.

I use this method to calculate the J and the J' of the motion equation.

Here are two curve of J(theta): the yellow one comes from the simulation with "my method", the ciano one comes from an algebraic calculus.

The differences are small and decrease with the number of points growing (the simulation time step).

11 REPLIES 11

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09-04-2018
05:12 PM

09-04-2018
05:12 PM

Re: Mechanism: function from graph for torque-motors and force

You must

instead of (g(theta) from external file) * theta

use (g(theta)*theta from external file) = make new external file with the math done.

because no additional math allowed on external file and only one primary variable allowed.

Make new external file using data generated as such.

Example use of external file.

And here is format for .tab file shown using Notepad++ with LINE #s shown

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09-04-2018
02:57 AM

09-04-2018
02:57 AM

Re: Mechanism: function from graph for torque-motors and force

I explain better what I would to to.

I'm studying a mechanical system moved by a brushless motor.

The system is periodic and it can run at a max speed of 140 rpm.

I want to study the initial transitory where the system starts from zero velocity and reaches the max speed.

The brushless motor doesn't have an operation curve, but "a operation field", where the limits are the max speed and the max torque.

I've thought to use the rotating systems equation but I've the inertia and its derivative only like "graph points" and not in closed form like a function.

How can I do?

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09-05-2018
09:39 AM

09-05-2018
09:39 AM

Re: Mechanism: function from graph for torque-motors and force

Great this is good information from you.

I suggest the max torque vs speed as shown. (note x, y axis reversed from your chart)

The operation curve is forced by the controller and so I choose the fastest startup operation.

In simulate use a torque motor with independent variable of speed (not position)

Your rotating systems equation is __not for the output torque__ of the motor, it is for the __Load torque__ the motor must overcome.

Simulate will use mass/geometry/joints to get J(theta) terms and will automatically calculate the inertia based load __for you__. (I assume you model entire mechanical system and just apply the motor with its proper inertia to it)

You will need to add a constant resistance Tr (bearing drag load) somewhere in your model if you have not already done this.

Note: when simulation reaches operating point (140rpm) then you may need to stop the analysis.

Or make this part of curve slightly sloped like (139.5RPM,Local-Tmax & 140.5RPM,0 ).

This should make it find the constant operating torque Tr.

Also a tip, use the speed units of default (deg/s) for the independent variable. This means your curve must be in terms of deg/s not rpm. You can use a "user defined" measure to convert to RPM but it is best that this is only as final output, not used in equations for motors, forces, etc. (less math during simulation = better)

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09-07-2018
06:38 AM

09-07-2018
06:38 AM

Re: Mechanism: function from graph for torque-motors and force

I inserted the torque-motor datas as you've suggested and, as independent variable, I put the shaft rotation in deg/s (as Creo standard measure).

However I've the trouble the system exceeds the nominal velocity of 140 rpm because the motor velocity is not regulated.

With regard to the initial transient study, all this it's ok; so I tried to study "a normal cycle" that starts at (140 rpm-0 degrees) shaft (velocity-position).

If I study this situation with a servomotor applied to the shaft with a constant velocity, I've seen the system "doesn't feel the shaft inertia": if I apply to the main shaft (where the servo is applied) a fly-wheel, I don't see on the servo's netload any differences beetween the situations with and without fly-wheel.**This is a point that I wonder to the forum community**.

Now I want to try with a torque motor...

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09-07-2018
09:11 AM

09-07-2018
09:11 AM

Re: Mechanism: function from graph for torque-motors and force

Sorry, maybe I've understood wrong, but in my equation Tm is the torque of the motor. The part of torque that the motor has not to give (the help of the inertia) is "inside" the terms of J,J' at the right hand side of equation that can becoma negative.

Do I say wrong?

Do I say wrong?

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09-07-2018
10:40 AM

09-07-2018
10:40 AM

Re: Mechanism: function from graph for torque-motors and force

Inertia is only felt due to accelerations. Since there was constant velocity at the flywheel, the flywheel does nothing. Try ramping the servo velocity slightly and compare with and without the flywheel.

But, I agree, a torque motor shows more what is happening.

**If you have CREO5, example files attached. **

To make the flywheel changes, just change the density of the large input gear by 10x using the mechanism mass property (change from default)

As expected the flywheel regulates the speed.

Note 839 to 841 deg/s has some real value of slope - otherwise the operating point would be ambiguous.

Watch carefully the extrapolation before and after your defined motor curve.

But, what if we use the motor to apply reverse torque when the speed exceeds our target?

This also compares with and without flywheel.

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09-07-2018
11:11 AM

09-07-2018
11:11 AM

Re: Mechanism: function from graph for torque-motors and force

Maybe I have an answer regarding the flywheel and the reason why I don't see a variation on the Netload of the servo during the constant velocity analysis. By retaking the equation of the motion for a rotating system, if I imposte v=cost I "delete" the term with J(theta); it remains only the inertia derivative, whom is not affected by the adding of a constant inertia (the flywheel indeed).

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09-07-2018
11:51 AM

09-07-2018
11:51 AM

Re: Mechanism: function from graph for torque-motors and force

Sorry, I answered on my last thread on flywheel before reading yours.

I'm not at work now (until monday) and I can't access to Creo/ProE to see your example.

I also have modified the brushless curve on the torque motor breaking off the graph and adding the negative side at the max spedd that I want to impose.

I saw that if I add the negative part of the curve "at the end", in my case at 5000rpm, the analysis goes. If I use the curve braked off at target speed, the analysis fails after a while.

However analysis like these use the max torque.

Is there the manner to use the right torque value, inside the torque field of the brushless, who maintains the target velocity?

I'm not at work now (until monday) and I can't access to Creo/ProE to see your example.

I also have modified the brushless curve on the torque motor breaking off the graph and adding the negative side at the max spedd that I want to impose.

I saw that if I add the negative part of the curve "at the end", in my case at 5000rpm, the analysis goes. If I use the curve braked off at target speed, the analysis fails after a while.

However analysis like these use the max torque.

Is there the manner to use the right torque value, inside the torque field of the brushless, who maintains the target velocity?

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09-07-2018
02:32 PM

09-07-2018
02:32 PM

Re: Mechanism: function from graph for torque-motors and force

No problem.

It is possible you want to implement a specific speed control algorithm on the motor torque output. You would need more than just the motor "field" (range of operation)

My speed control algorithm is: if over target, oppose with full negative torque; if under target, oppose with full positive torque. It is not fancy, does not have soft start, PID control, etc.

This chart shows the method, with two example control speeds.

This implements a speed controller.

Note how the motor responds to the speed, working to reach the target.

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