12-Amethyst

Question

MathCAD Prime 1.0 is a step back

Forum|Forum|15 years ago
January 11, 2011
21 replies
182616 views

Hi friends,

well I just must realize, that Prime is a step backward. One the one hand important functions are missing and on the other hand all the experts out in the communities who has Mathcad 14/15 can not work with the MathCad Prime worksheets as it is not backward compatibility.

I think PTC must improve PRIME quite a lot, as now the userbility is other but not better. Where is the useful collabsable region feature in Prime?

comments are welcome.

Walter

Other

M

MikeArmstrong

1-Visitor

Hi friends,
well I just must realize, that Prime is a step backward. One the one hand important functions are missing and on the other hand all the experts out in the communities who has Mathcad 14/15 can not work with the MathCad Prime worksheets as it is not backward compatibility.
I think PTC must improve PRIME quite a lot, as now the userbility is other but not better. Where is the useful collabsable region feature in Prime?
comments are welcome.

Most users are well aware that it will take a few versions of Prime until it reaches the same level as previous versions of Mathcad.

You are correct, collapsed regions are not included in Prime 1.0 along with many other features which I currently use, but expected to be included in Prime 2.0. IMO I believe Prime has targeted new Mathcad uses, not current users. I personally will not be fully converting to Prime for a while.

Mike

W

WalterSchrabmai

Author

12-Amethyst

Thanks Mike,

I will do that also, hopefully that the new spring-term will bring also a new (=old) licence for the versions 15 along. I think so, that MC 15 will be continued even when Prime is supported by PTC.

Walter

M

MikeArmstrong

1-Visitor

When you purchase Prime you also receive a copy of Mathcad 15

Mike

V

ValeryOchkov

24-Ruby IV

Mathcad Prime is one step back (1.0) and two steps forward (2.0)... I hope!

V

ViktorKorobov

1-Visitor

Vladimir Ilyich Lenin about Mathcad Prime 1.0: "One Step Forward, Two Steps Back".

P

ptc-1371556

1-Visitor

Hi

I think you guys are being too nice about the Prime product. What is wrong with a bit of honesty and realism.

I have spent only a short time (perhaps 2 -3 hours) trialling it on fairly simple tasks. Just a few quick comments:

1. The user interface is cumbersome and slow. Much mousing is needed to continually go to the ribbon, click a tab to choose a group task, then click again to select a particular item to insert into the worksheet. Writing up a worksheet will frequently take 3 clicks. There are no other toolbars / palettes as in Mathcad (or other products) which were implemented purely to improve the usability of the product. Doing anything in Prime will be hugely frustrating to write anything more than a 1 -2 page worksheet. Writing many pages of programming etc would be really inefficient of the user's time. The user's interface is essentially unusable.

2. The mouse is not correctly configured. Simple example. You write a variable name into the worksheet. You then try to select it and copy to paste into another part of the worksheet. Normally you try to do this by selecting it, right mouse click and copy but this does not work. This is standard mousing protocol in just about every piece of software on a PC and has been so for many years. Instead the user is forced to go to the ribbon to copy (possibly three clicks away) and then ironically, you can use the right mouse button to paste.

3. I experimented with the 2D graphs such as axis limits etc. The 2D graphs do not always display correctly. There were even a couple of times my computer locked up and I had to re-boot the computer. I regard the 2D graph as being buggy and unreliable.

Text blocks are a good idea and seem to work OK, but then I did not really check that or other features as my opinion of Prime shifted from hopeful to dismay that this software release was so inadequate. I did not want to waste any more time on Prime as I realised it was not ready. I know PTC have stated Prime is still short of a lot of really important features in Mathcad, but there are problems in what has been implemented to date. In my opinion, Prime should not be released at this stage as I suspect it will get hammered by its competition. I regard Prime as still being in the prototype phase. Who does PTC think will use this product?!

It appears PTC has decided to devote its resources to Prime. It seems likely it will take a long time before Prime is a properly functioning product. It may well be an excellent product by that time. But my concern is the existing Mathcad line, which I still believe could be improved with not much effort given the many practical suggestions over the years from the collaboratory, will stall on the sidelines. So current Mathcad users may see no change to their existing product for a couple of years. This is a long time to wait in any software market as the mathematical programmes out there continually improve, as they have done for the last few years.

I really like the Mathcad product, I have used it for 7 years now and I still believe it has enormous potential. But I am really disappointed in the overall situation now.

Are my comments above too hard? No.

Regards

David

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RogerMansfield

1-Visitor

Yes, I think we have all tried to be nice. Your comments are not "too hard" -- they are well thought out, and thankfully very civil. I'm not with PTC, yet I can assure you that your criticisms will be noted and acted upon. I have watched Mathcad evolve and have participated in its evolution for a long time (I don't want to date myself, nor do I want to come off as "bragging"). The transition from Mathsoft to PTC has been difficult. There were some times when I really considered not upgrading. But things have gotten a lot better in the last two years. Jakov has stated PTC's goal that Mathcad Prime 3.0 be able to replace Mathcad 15. That's about two years away. O.K., let's assume that this goal is met. Are you going to wait two years and then all of a sudden pick up on Mathcad Prime? If you were shocked by your first look at Mathcad Prime 1.0 now (I think you were, and understandably so), think what a shock you would get two years from now. What I think you will do (based upon the care that you took in writing up your criticisms), is that you will devote more time to learning more about Mathcad Prime 1.0. To the point where you will find some things to like. Because you don't want to give up on Mathcad -- you care about its future. I myself believe that Mathcad Prime is Mathcad's future. I also believe that honest, constructive criticism such as you have just voiced will help to shape that future. P.S. Consider volunteering to be a tester for Mathcad Prime 2.0. Just a thought.

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ValeryOchkov

24-Ruby IV

The Moscow branch of the PTC has asked me to add an official announcement of Mathcad Prime (see attach) a small comment. I wrote this:

PTC’s Mathcad, innovative and very popular engineering calculation software used by millions of engineers and students around the world, gets second wind with the release of Mathcad Prime. As Mathcad Prime is taking over the baton from traditional Mathcad, some past experience is worth remembering.

Transition to Mathcad Prime can be compared, in terms of its importance, to the transition from the DOS versions of Mathcad to the Windows versions. Yong people do not remember this revolutionary transition but older generation would appreciate the sentiment. Many resisted the Windows versions of Mathcad, thinking “an old ox named DOS makes a straight furrow”, but later realized the advantages of new technology. I am confident that the same fortunate turn of events is in store for Mathcad Prime!

PS

"An old ox named DOS makes a straight furrow" - in Russia we say "An old horse will not spoil a furrow"

PPS

Mathcad Prime is one backstep to DOS Mathcad - we cannot use buttons of palettes but must use hotkeys!

1_Mathcad-Prime-in-Russia.docx

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RogerMansfield

1-Visitor

Serious work on what is now Mathcad Prime began, as near as I can reckon from my own participation, no later than the beginning of 2009. So it took at least two years of planning and development to get to the release of Mathcad Prime 1.0 on January 10, 2011. If PTC had waited two more years to introduce Mathcad Prime at 3.0, no one but the testers would have gotten to see what is in the new Mathcad. The entirely new product, every new feature, would have been "dumped" on the user community all at once, two years from now. There would have been no opportunity for the general user base (vs. testers) to have input. Yet to Mathcad Single users who have not been a part of the last two years of testing, (e.g., David), even Mathcad Prime 1.0 looks like a big "dump" (pun not intended;-). David, volunteer as a tester for Prime 2.0. PTC needs your input. We who participate in PlanetPTC now have a golden opportunity to help shape the future of Mathcad. What really matters is what lies ahead. The ribbon UI will be refined -- not to everyone's satisfaction (for sure that's impossible), but it will get better. Clearly, Valery is onboard. So am I. For my own part, I'd like to stop defending Mathcad Prime 1.0 now and just focus on using it.

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ptc-1371556

1-Visitor

Hi

As I see it, software development needs two basic aspects to make it work:

(a) It must do what it is intended to do using code that is as lean, mean and as fast as possible. This assumes the underlying processes and structure of the written software are sound etc.

(b) The user can work quickly and efficiently to get their work done. It is imperative there are no bottlenecks for the user. User time is valuable - human costs are high given salaries etc. Purchasing of software is usually a relatively low cost item in comparison. So user productivity in all its different guises is really important.

As much as possible needs to be done by the software manufacturer whilst still at their "factory". This includes periodically developing the software to meet changes in user needs.

Just because Microsoft decided to change its interface a few years ago in Office from the previous menu & toolbars etc to the ribbon, it does not mean that PTC needs to copy it. I regard the ribbon interface as being slower for the user than the previous interface due the greater number of movements by the user. This applies in Office as well as in PTC Prime. A mathematical programme is a specialist one and I suggest a user is quite prepared to accept a non-ribbon Microsoft lookalike if it makes the user happier and more efficient. At the least, I suggest PTC needs to enable user-adaptibility of the ribbon such as via palettes / toolbars etc.

Given I have used Mathcad (relying on v11 since when I started in 2003, having tried and not liked or been indifferent to the more recent versions), for whatever it seems to be worth, I do offer some of my time for testing etc. (I offered some time ago with Prime, but not accepted at the time by PTC as perhaps they had enough testers).

However, PTC has gained, maybe unfairly as I do not really know, a perception at least with me to be somewhat indifferent to users etc. Are PTC really interested by listening to users or are they just going their "own sweet way" irrespective. Has PTC really listened to all you guys who have contributed so much to the collaboratory, who I regard as being expert in Mathcad and you all have a high level of engagement to the product? Over the years, many good suggestions have been made for the Mathcad product but not that many have been actually implemented. That of course is PTC's prerogative as owner of the Mathcad / Prime product. But users do not have accept what they do either : they do not have to buy or upgrade to their latest product.

I object strongly to the ribbon. If Prime does not make it more user friendly then I shall not bother to even test the product. This as at stands now is a total deal breaker for me. I do not want to spend my time experimenting with Prime given the inefficiencies of the ribbon.

I am running a small consulting practice. I need to develop my programmes to cover my work requirements (which continue to get more complicated with each passing year) and I cannot wait another 2 years for Prime to get to a point where it replaces Mathcad. How much extra functionality will Prime have over Mathcad in 2 years time? That is a valid question. In addition, I absolutely must make more efficient use of my time and try to improve my productivity, irrespective of the mathematical software I use.

Money is a consideration, but not the only factor for me. As mentioned above, my work requirements and productivity are paramount for me. I have to be commercial. Whilst Mathcad was good for me in the past (and I preferred it over Maple and Mathematica), I now need something more than the current Mathcad. The other mathematical products have changed over time. So I have just decided to spend $2,500 and buy Mathematica. I truly do not want to re-write all my programmes etc, but I feel I have no choice given my particular circumstances. I know I will need to spend a lot of time upfront to learn it and write my new programmes, but I am hoping my productivity gains in the future will more than compensate for the immediate workload. Other users will have their own requirements so please note I am not trying to influence them: I am just presenting my own views.

Deep down, I always liked the Mathcad product, so I intend to keep Mathcad on the side for the time being and keep an eye on Prime as it develops. But I am really disappointed that so little has gone into the Mathcad product over recent years.

Regards

David

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MySchizoBuddy

1-Visitor

if Mathcad Prime 1.0 was $100 everyone will stop complaining.

I would like to see a version of JUST Mathcad Prime 1.0 WITHOUT Mathcad 15 for $100.

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jkucan

5-Regular Member

If one is looking at Mathcad Prime 1.0 as a direct replacement for Mathcad 15.0, I would have to agree with many comments in this discussion thread. For those of you that used Mathcad for many years, I understand you point of view, and I will reiterate that we intend to evolve Mathcad Prime to replace Mathcad 15.0 over the next few releases.

Let me, however, comment from a different perspective. Image you started working in Mathcad Prime 1.0 and were considering switching to Mathcad 15.0. Here are a few things that you would be missing (the point being, Mathcad Prime 1.0 is not just a subset of Mathcad 15.0 -- it is a new product).

More comprehensive support for units including: dynamic unit checking, mixed units in matrices, unit handling in more functions, better unit handling in plots, automatic highlighting of units in equations, etc.
Improved Fourier functions dft and idft (the new functions have improved performance and precision, handle more cases, and are used in many signal processing functions).
Variable definitions in tables
Easy editing of matrices (adding or deleting rows and columns)
Improved programming operators (easier editing, more familiar if-then-else form, etc.)
Easier to use equation editor (highlighting of operands, operator replacement, grouping of terms, etc.)
Extension pack functionality merged into the core product
Improvements to file read/write functions (READEXCEL, READTEXT, READ and matching WRITE functions)
New 2D plot types (discrete plots, box plots, etc.)
Improvements to contour plots
Document view including WYSIWYG editing of headers and footers
Grid for region alignment
etc.

In addition, the usability of the product has been significantly improved. I see that some of you disagree with this statement, but we have been testing this product for usability in usability tests with ~90 participants in ~6 tests and 5 alpha/beta tests with ~200 participants providing comprehensive feedback.

The overwhelming feedback on usability has been positive.

At the end of the last Alpha test, 56% of testers surveyed, agreed that they would use Mathcad Prime 1.0. And 49% of testers would recommend Mathcad Prime 1.0 to other people in their company. Others indicated they would wait until Prime 2.0 releases.

We have also learned that some things cannot please everyone (e.g. the ribbon gets mixed reviews), and that some of the things need fine tuning. We have incorporated some of the feedback in Mathcad Prime 1.0 and plan to incorporate more of that feedback in Mathcad Prime 2.0.

Yes, we had to make some compromises in terms of fucnitonality to be able to release the product sooner, rather than later, but is Mathcad Prime 1.0 a step back? I don't think so, and I hope that most of users will agree with me after spending some time with the product.

V

ValeryOchkov

24-Ruby IV

Mathcad Prime has only one drawback - it must have other name!

M

MBuck2

1-Visitor

Yes I agree, MathCad Prime name certainly doesn't reflect its ability. In my view its certainly feels impoverished in comparison to MathCad 15. Yes it may have some new innovative features but can it get the job done? This in the end, is all that counts. It lacks so many features in comparision to MC 15 and so the answer to the later question is a definite NO.

The MS Office type tool bar is OK but formatting a document in my view is harder to do in MathCad Prime than in MC15. The look of the programming blocks with their horrible double vertical lines and the solve blocks with their vertical text which overlap and become unreadable is unappealing and amateurish. I even think that the way MathCad 15 implements imbedded excel worksheets is more intuitive - at least you can see the data that's contained in the excel worksheet without having to get properties on the link.

Yes, in my view, its certainly not ready for 'Prime Time" viewing.

Mark Buckton

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DavidLWalker

4-Participant

Mathcad Prime is a huge step backward!

The installation process completely disabled my already working Mathcad 15!

I spent all day Friday on the phone with PTC trying to get it running again.

It's Saturday and my Mathcad 15 still not running!

I might put a DOS machine together and see how Prime compares with one of the DOS versions.

From what I have seen of Prime it seems harder to use and have no more functionality then those versions.

If something doesn't change quickly MC 15 is my last Mathcad.

E

Efried

1-Visitor

I wonder why you are so positive about Mathcad15.

It crashes if calclulation results are out of bounds and it throeas totally meaningless error messages in programm blocks...

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RichardJ

19-Tanzanite

It crashes if calclulation results are out of bounds

What do you mean? Can you post an example?

it throeas totally meaningless error messages in programm blocks...

It does have some meaningless error messages (as did 12, 13, and 14) but the ones you have posted here are not meaningless.

H

h_nas

1-Visitor

True. even worse my computer respond slowly, crashes as amuch as possibe if I used MathCAD Prime 1.0,

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mzeftel

1-Visitor

Hana,

Mathcad Prime 1.0 is very stable, based on alpha tester reports and our testing inhouse. It sounds like you might have installation issues. What is your operating system? Please post what exactly is happening.

Thanks,

Mona

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WilliKlein

1-Visitor

Dear friends,

Please tell me what I have to do with my MathCAD sheets from the last twenty years?

My library contains more than 200 projects from 10 to 80 pages!

It is incredible what PTC does.

J

jkucan

5-Regular Member

You should be able to convert the worksheets developed in prior versions of Mathcad using the MCD, MCDX Converter functionality in Mathcad Prime 1.0.

Depending of what functionality you used in those 200+ projects, not all worksheets may completely work in Mathcad Prime 1.0. The converter should tell you as it encounters content it cannot faithfully convert: for example: unsupported calculation, unsupported formatting, calculation differences, etc.

If you try converting few examples, you'd be able to quickly tell whether it makes sense to start using Mathcad Prime 1.0 or wait until Mathcad Prime 2.0 comes out. This is why Mathcad 15.0 will be fully supported at least until Mathcad Prime 3.0 is released.

PTC and the Mathcad team has not abandoned users, that like you, have a vast library of worksheets. We are well aware of the need to preserve and bring forward the valuable content you and users like you have created over the years. Unlike prior releases of Mathcad, Mathcad Prime generation of products brings significant changes that dictate the transition over a sequence of release.

If you are able to share some of your worksheets with the Mathcad R&D team, please let us know. This would be a great help to us in ensuring better quality of the conversion process.

G

GeoffreyStone

1-Visitor

MC1 is a work in progress and the engineering and scientific community has been asked to help with its developement. I hope it grows into a low cost widely used product that appears on every engineer's desk. I agree with the critism levelled at it at the present however if the criticism is made constructively PTC should listen and develop the product. If they fail to do this then the product will not be successful.

I think the issue about the ribbon will die a natural death as users get used to it or give up and stay with MC15.I dont see PTC changing on this one as it would be too politically embarassing. I am sure that they see the next generation being familiar with it. They may be wrong of course.

I have suffered with another product takeover. i used Pipepak for pipe stress analysis. Autodesk took over Algor and the product was dropped. If MC is dropped in favour of MC Prime then it will be another nail in my professional coffin. The beach with gin and tonic in hand is looking even more inviting.

R

RichardJ

19-Tanzanite

If MC is dropped in favour of MC Prime

Not "If", but "When".

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