Pro/Manikin

[DaveEngel]

http://www.ptc.com/appserver/wcms/standards/free.jsp?&im_dbkey=82672&icg_dbkey=21

Maybe we should get this and put the model in front of a workstation running ProE? I wonder if excessive mouse clicks would pass ergonomic standards?

This thing should assess the psychological impact of software interaction frustration.

[mjenkins]

I wonder if it squirts blood or something if you get his hand caught in a press brake?

Michael R. Jenkins P.E.
Design Engineer
Direct: 816-801-2332
Fax: 816-891-9432

Commercial Vehicle Systems
Haldex Brake Products Corporation
10930 North Pomona Avenue
Kansas City, MO 64153-1215

[TimMcLellan]

PTC Users & PTC,



I recently updated to WF4 M060 and began looking over the Pro/Manikin. I
will try to keep this brief. The capability of the basic model is a welcome
addition. While performance seemed a bit slow there may still be some value
(not much). If you have not looked at it yet please do so. I was able to
quickly place the basic manikin into an assembly, position it, move it
around, adjust posture and review my package area. This was great for a one
time event. With the purchased extensions you can do so much more; vision
studies, access other percentiles, and analyze are just some of the
highlights of the purchased extensions.



However, the value of the maintenance paying customer's manikin lies in
initial concept and does not support real world PDS. It becomes a single
event and worse something that would have to be repeated over and over again
as your design/package evolves. SMB's considering this may be better served
to create a simple mock up of a human for the few positions they use
especially if usage is not that often. This solely lies in the fact that
you can not save anything done using the basic manikin unless you have
upgraded to the purchased extension.



PTC misses an opportunity for foundation owners to use this new
functionality (if save was there) over and over again while seeing other
extension options (e.g. vision, reach, analysis.). This will, in my view,
turn people off to the added value from the functionality of the manikin and
thus greatly limit any use/sales of the product. It's too bad.



Full Disclosure: I was aware of this limited functionality for some time
(no save). However, it is always different once you try to leverage what you
get with your maintenance dollars. This time the value is very little
overall.



Regards,



Tim McLellan
Mobius Innovation and Development, Inc.

[mamorrissey]

Tim,

Many thanks for your feedback.

I think you hit thenail on the head in terms of our decision to include a free "teaser" of Pro/ENGINEER Manikin inside WF4 M060when you state "I was able to quickly place the basic manikin into an assembly, position it, move it around, adjust posture and review my package area" and "This was great for a one time event."

This, in essence, is the type of feedback we were hoping to receive from users exploring the free teaser.

The primary rationale behind including a free, non-savable Pro/ENGINEER Manikin component within WF4 was to demonstrate to users,particularly those Pro/ENGINEER users whotypically would not have considered using a digital human model, that it can be fun, easy-to-use and provides significant value to the process of designing and manufacturing products that meet the needs of a wide, globally-based, target audience.

The response to Pro/ENGINEER Manikin has been extremely positive, and we are already receiving requests for formal demonstrations of our licensed Pro/ENGINEER Manikin solutions based on exposure to the free 'teaser'.

Our Pricing and Packagng Strategy for our licensed products, Pro/ENGINEER Manikin Extension and Pro/ENGINEER Manikin Analysis Extension, has drasticallychanged the affordability paradigm for a high quality, anthropometrically-correct, standards-based Digital Human Modeling solution. Pro/ENGINEER Manikin Extension contains the necessary functionality set toexplore, and optimize, human-centric issuesdirectly within the PDS, yet does so at 10-15% of the cost of competitive, non-integratedsolutions.

As such, we believe our focus on pricing and packaging, coupled with a strong usability paradigmand rich feature set, results in a highly-scalable digital human modeling solution that meets the needs of SMBs through to the largest OEMs.

Regards,

Mark Morrissey

Director Product Development

PTC

[TimMcLellan]

Mark,



Thank you for your prompt reply. With all due respect, as you state, "This,
in essence, is the type of feedback we were hoping to receive from users
exploring the free teaser", you failed to mention my other comments. I am a
little surprised.



Here again are my comments regarding the value I perceive:

However, the value of the maintenance paying customer's manikin lies in
initial concept and does not support real world PDS. It becomes a single
event and worse something that would have to be repeated over and over again
as your design/package evolves. SMB's considering this may be better served
to create a simple mock up of a human for the few positions they use
especially if usage is not that often. This solely lies in the fact that
you can not save anything done using the basic manikin unless you have
upgraded to the purchased extension.



PTC misses an opportunity for foundation owners to use this new
functionality (if save was there) over and over again while seeing other
extension options (e.g. vision, reach, analysis.). This will, in my view,
turn people off to the added value from the functionality of the manikin and
thus greatly limit any use/sales of the product. It's too bad.



Also you mention that request for formal demonstrations has been positive, I
have no doubt that this would be the case. However, as a SMB serving some
very large and small companies in Defense, Consumer Products and Automotive
I will be sticking with my static manikin models for now. The lack of
save, re-use and the "teaser" functionality did not spark me to make a
purchase. What is worse is I am not likely to review Pro/Manikin again for
some time based on my testing and understanding of it release/functionality.




Here is an analogy: If I had an apple pie in my kitchen when I walked into
the room I may be tempted to take a slice. The next time I walked into my
kitchen the apple pie was gone I would no longer think about taking a slice.
However, if each and every time I walked into my kitchen and the apple pie
was still there I would never forget about it and at some point I would
likely take a slice. Good luck selling a disappearing apple pie.



Seriously - best wishes and I hope to hear from others.



Regards,



Tim McLellan
Mobius Innovation and Development, Inc.

[PAULKORENKIEWIC]

I've been expecting a post on the Manikin "debacle" and so here's my
view. In my humble and personal opinion, and definitely "rant mode ON",
Pro/Manikin is a module that should ONLY be available to those who WANT
it. I can't see any use for it in my work, nor any of the work I've
done for the past 25 years. The fact that PTC decided to put it (and a
main menu item for it!) in my installation of WF BEFORE completing the
interface is just typical of my opinion that the people creating this
software are very much out of touch with the people actually using it.

I can't get the model tree width setting to save, but I can put in a
manikin next to my parts! Woohoo!

WHY didn't PTC put the Pro/SHIPBUILDING module in there? Or the
Pro/ENGINE module in there? Or the Tolerance Analysis stuff? Why not
just SELL main menu space for commercials! I bet Yahoo or Google would
buy some! LOL....

Of course, maybe I'm the exception... maybe "most" find value in it...
of course, like Time is pointing out, without any ability to SAVE it's
just a "toy"... AND as such, I wish there was a way to "lock it in
the closet" while my users do REAL work... 😉

Okay, enough... "rant mode OFF"... sincere apologies to any who feel
they deserve them... back to work 😉

Paul Korenkiewicz
FEV , Inc.
4554 Glenmeade
Auburn Hills, MI, 48326-1766

[jfrankovich]

In our business, I can see some value to the Manikin module, however, I completely agree with Tim in that the lack of a save function makes the inclusion of the module virtually pointless. This behavior completely coincides with PTC's statement that this is just a "teaser". But, like Paul, I say if this is just a "teaser" why bother including it in the base installation? I would much rather see this kind of functionality deprived "teaser" offered as free plug-ins or add-ons that I can CHOOSE to install and just as easily CHOOSE to remove. If you are going to force the "teaser" to exist on my system, then at least give me a full taste of the functionality while allowing me (the maintenance paying customer) the most basic of needed functionality (save).

John Frankovich
The GSI Group

----------

[dgschaefer]

This is so typical of how things work in Pro|E world, it's really sad.

1 - PTC creates a nice new feature (manikin), and then only gets it 90%
finished (no save).
2 - User points out that the new feature is useless to him without this
missing 10%, too bad.
3 - PTC responds that yes, we think the new feature is just great too,
thanks for saying so!

I understand that putting Manikin in for maintenance paying customers is
supposed to entice folks to buy the package, but as Tim said, putting in
such a crippled version means that folks are going to do little but try
it once and then ignore it. Then, as John pointed out, it lingers
there, nagging like the dummy plate on your dashboard indicating that
you didn't pony up for the fog lights. Worse, it's like having the
actual fog light switch that does nothing but light up an indicator on
the dash and then doesn't stay on unless you hold your finger on it.

PTC, you need to take a look at the rest of the software world where you
can get a lite version, that has FULL basic functionality free, but
you've got to pay for the full featured one. How it works then, is that
folks USE it a lot. Little by little they find places where they wish
they had that line of sight analysis or some other feature and at some
point they buy. Not all, but more than if you hadn't put the tease in.

It sounds like the tease you put in is not going to be effective. I
suppose when I get it, I'll give it a try, but that's it. I won't use
it beyond that because toying with it is to painful. Make it easy for
us to get addicted to it and we will be more likely to buy.

Doug Schaefer

[kimndave9]

OK - I can continue with building a useful and saveable human model
without feeling it a waste of the effort.

The head is the most interesting part and I've got a pretty good way to
build it.

Hands with fingers are the most tedious interface, but I've got the
easily positionable arms and legs done; using the same technique will
work for the fingers.

A better teaser would be a 60 day license for the full product rather
than embedded fragmentware.


Dave S.


Tim McLellan wrote:
>
> PTC Users & PTC,
>
>
>
> I recently updated to WF4 M060 and began looking over the
> Pro/Manikin. I will try to keep this brief. The capability of the
> basic model is a welcome addition. While performance seemed a bit
> slow there may still be some value (not much). If you have not
> looked at it yet please do so. I was able to quickly place the basic
> manikin into an assembly, position it, move it around, adjust posture
> and review my package area. This was great for a one time event.
> With the purchased extensions you can do so much more; vision studies,
> access other percentiles, and analyze are just some of the highlights
> of the purchased extensions.
>
>
>
> However, the value of the maintenance paying customer's manikin lies
> in initial concept and does not support real world PDS. It becomes a
> single event and worse something that would have to be repeated over
> and over again as your design/package evolves. SMB's considering this
> may be better served to create a simple mock up of a human for the few
> positions they use especially if usage is not that often. This solely
> lies in the fact that you can not save anything done using the basic
> manikin unless you have upgraded to the purchased extension.
>
>
>
> PTC misses an opportunity for foundation owners to use this new
> functionality (if save was there) over and over again while seeing
> other extension options (e.g. vision, reach, analysis...). This will,
> in my view, turn people off to the added value from the functionality
> of the manikin and thus greatly limit any use/sales of the product.
> It's too bad.
>
>
>
> Full Disclosure: I was aware of this limited functionality for some
> time (no save). However, it is always different once you try to
> leverage what you get with your maintenance dollars. This time the
> value is very little overall.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> /*/Tim McLellan/*/
> **Mobius Innovation and Development, Inc.**
> *Office: 321.206.8078*
> *Cell: 734.634.6681*
> *Fax: 866.691.0050*
> tim.mclellan@mobiusid.com
> www.mobiusid.com <blocked::<a style="COLOR:" blue;=" text-decoration:=" underline&quot;=" target="_BLANK" href="http://www.mobiusid.com/">">http://www.mobiusid.com/>
>