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Gripes

PhilipLeitch
1-Newbie

Gripes

Whether Prime behaves like a new product not there are some bits I find particularly annoying, even though they aren't technically errors/bugs. This is my top 5 gripe list:


Gripe 1: The features that will not be included in Prime 1.0. This is my number 1 gripe because even if given the final product for free it is absolutely useless to me without the "basic" features of programming and symbolics.... and richer graphing... and so on. I can't use the graphs for publication, I can't use programs to process the data. I can't do much at all. I know others have asked the question, who could use it (who is the target audience), because it has me stumpped.

Gripe 2: There appears to have been no consultation of the community of users. They are allowing us to Beta test the application - but Beta testing is the end of the development process. I've done an MBA an for a product like this, product developed without prior and on-going market research (consultation) is doomed.

Gripe 3: The fact that worksheets are "paper" based in layout. Ummm... WHY!!!!???? This is 2009, not 1999!!! Things just aren't printed as much as they were a decade ago.

Isn't it a mathematics workspace rather than a desktop publishing tool???? It should be the opposite focus of a publishing tool, like Excel where Print Areas and other Page Setup options are normally done after the worksheet has been created. It can still print very nice documents if you want, but that is an after-thought to the central purpose of the software.

I'd like to know what % of worksheets ever get printed. On my Mathcad 14 I would say about 0.01%, but maybe I print more than most.

Gripe 4: The data entry is VERY slow. In the worksheet I posted on dates the final Copy and Paste of formula became so slow that at times I thought the program had locked up. Many times I clicked and typed, but the delay was sooo loooong that it ended up just throwing my keystrokes at the end of the forumla (not where I had clicked). But it's not just the program that is slow, the constant interaction with the ribbon just to write text or select a different option is a very slow, clunky process.

Gripe 5: Broad ranging changes in keyboard shortcuts and formatting. For instance I'm used to pressing Ctrl + 6 for the superscript (for matrix column). But now it means "or"... which is displayed as a down arrow. So you press the key that has the up arrow (carat) for a down arrow.

If you want "and" (an up arrow) you press Ctrl + 7.

I can see how this might make sense to some boffin as the 7 has the ampersand above it... but I'm not pressing Ctrl+Shift+7 (which would be Ctrl + &).

Right - so the fact that the 6 has the up arrow on it is ignored, but the fact that the 7 has an & symbol on it is recognised.

So in the end it just doesn't make sense.

As others have pointed out, there are many other examples such as ; no longer doing .. and ' no longer doing ().

Also - the "snap to grid" function is very annoying. I mostly don't want to snap to the grid, so it just becomes a pain. From what I can see 99% of the changes to shortcuts and formatting don't actually provide an improvement, they are just a change for changes sake.

And that sums up my top 5 gripes.




All in all, I would ask you to look at Maple. I notice that they have just introduced some of the ideas I previously expressed. They have facilities for students to do tests on-line. The assessment is created, undertaken and results calculated all using Maple. The maple graphs still seem basic, still more powerful than Prime (they look a lot like old Mathcad graphs). They are also actively engaged with their community throughout the development process (or so the sales guy was telling me). If you could make a product that at least does what Maple does then that's a good first step. But that's such a shame because I've been told that Mathcad has always been better than Maple.


Philip
___________________
Nobody can hear you scream in Euclidean space.
15 REPLIES 15

On 8/26/2009 3:39:28 AM, pleitch wrote:

== This is my top 5 gripe list:
== Gripe 1: The features that will not be included in Prime 1.0. This is my number 1 gripe because even if given the final product for free it is absolutely useless to me without the "basic" features of programming and symbolics.... and richer graphing... and so on. I can't use the graphs for publication, I can't use programs to process the data. I can't do much at all. I know others have asked the question, who could use it (who is the target audience), because it has me stumpped.


Without knowledge of the target audience it is �difficult� to comment, because speculation about the Operational Requirement is just that �speculation�. As previously mentioned, most of the posters on this forum (and the Collab generally), may not be representative of the actual, and potential, user community.

Having listened, over the years, to some of the reasons features are absent or somewhat restricted, I have this vague feeling that some of us may be talking about up-gunning a Main Battle Tank plus fitting it with advanced C4 systems, when it turns out the main group of end users is having a problem with the musket.

== Gripe 2: There appears to have been no consultation of the community of users. They are allowing us to Beta test the application - but Beta testing is the end of the development process. I've done an MBA an for a product like this, product developed without prior and on-going market research (consultation) is doomed.

I don�t think that�s true. I haven�t been involved but I�ve seen reference to an Alpha test and, by keeping my ears to the ground, I think some users have been involved. But see above about the possible range of users.

== Gripe 3: The fact that worksheets are "paper" based in layout. Ummm... WHY!!!!???? This is 2009, not 1999!!! Things just aren't printed as much as they were a decade ago.

Maybe not, but they still are. Bookshelves and magazine racks don�t seem to be any emptier. All of our company in-house documents are still virtually paper based, and despite best efforts to make it a paperless office, the printers are busy working their way through rain-forests every day. I refuse to even consider screen reviewing some documents � the technology�s just not there yet.

== Isn't it a mathematics workspace rather than a desktop publishing tool???? It should be the opposite focus of a publishing tool, like Excel where Print Areas and other Page Setup options are normally done after the worksheet has been created. It can still print very nice documents if you want, but that is an after-thought to the central purpose of the software.

It�s both and should be capable of supporting whatever phase of a project its used for. The goal should be end-to-end implementation of a project in Mathcad rather than faffing around with multiple applications depending what you�re doing.

If all you�re doing is maths whiteboarding a problem, then a paperless environment is fine, but most commercial projects will take it further than that and want something fairly neatly layed out. See http://collab.mathsoft.com/read?112745,12 for some further thoughts.

Two main goals of using any mathematical tool are using it to develop ideas, in which case layout isn�t necessarily that much of an issue, and communicating those ideas to others, in which case layout is of prime importance. Don�t forget that whilst Excel may not be particularly paper-oriented, it still has a wide range of formatting tools available to it to improve the appearance and allow users to both read and interact with it.

== I'd like to know what % of worksheets ever get printed. On my Mathcad 14 I would say about 0.01%, but maybe I print more than most.

Work stuff? Almost all of it, for archiving and review if nothing else (we still need a paper master copy).
Personal? About 2%, mostly for reviewing (As even Prime doesn�t allow multiple views onto a single worksheet, I find it difficult to review a long worksheet by flicking up and down it)

== Gripe 4: The data entry is VERY slow. In the worksheet I posted on dates the final Copy and Paste of formula became so slow that at times I thought the program had locked up. Many times I clicked and typed, but the delay was sooo loooong that it ended up just throwing my keystrokes at the end of the forumla (not where I had clicked). But it's not just the program that is slow, the constant interaction with the ribbon just to write text or select a different option is a very slow, clunky process.

Yep. Hopefully that will improve. I know they�re looking into it.

== Gripe 5: Broad ranging changes in keyboard shortcuts and formatting. For instance I'm used to pressing Ctrl + 6 for the superscript (for matrix column). But now it means "or"... which is displayed as a down arrow. So you press the key that has the up arrow (carat) for a down arrow.
== �


Inevitable that there will be some likes and dislikes, particularly if attempts are made to rationalize keys and free up keys to provide other requested shortcuts. I�m hanging fire on this until I�ve had a proper chance to play with it � which isn�t looking likely at the moment as several of the key combinations don�t work on my UK keyboard.

Stuart

re: Gripe 4. There have been repeated calls from structural engineering guys for archival and deliverable quality formats and printouts.

Likewise, there have been calls for PDF outputs, again, for archival and presentation purposes.

While the actual percentage of use for even those requirements might be relatively low, over time, when they're needed, they'r 100% needed.


TTFN,
Eden

These are my personal gripes. I understand that not all target users will feel the same way. This is boiling up out of frustration of Beta testing the software.

I am surprised that your organisation still prints so much. We still print things, but vastly reduced to even a couple of years ago.

But that's by-the-by.

My point was that programs like Excel focus on what they are meant to do, and printing comes second. That's not to say that printing features are limmited, in fact Excel has highly advanced printing features. But the printing setup, layout and actual printing is normally done at the end of the process IF it is required at all.

Similarly with Mathcad, when I'm processing work the rare time I need to print something off is normally the last page of a mathcad workbook, which is formatted in a nice way. Either that or I copy and paste out the results into Word because Mathcad can't format as well as I would like.

So my gripe isn't that Mathcad SHOULDN'T be able to print, or SHOULDN'T have powerful print features, my gripe is that Prime appears to be focused on printing first and foremost. Due to a focus on the printed page the layout no longer lends itself to being a data and mathematics workspace. So my gripe is that this is exactly the opposite to what the program should be doing, it should focus on the mathematics workspace first, and then (like Excel) provide powerful printing features and options.

Philip
___________________
Nobody can hear you scream in Euclidean space.

On 8/26/2009 3:39:28 AM, pleitch wrote:

>Gripe 1: The features that
>will not be included in Prime
>1.0. This is my number 1
>gripe

For me a much bigger concern is not what has been included in Prime 1.0, but what will ever be included in future versions. Will we ever be able to import a 2D graphs as anything other than a bitmap? Will we ever be able to read a .mcd file? When programming is eventually implemented will it be done in such a way that programs in old worksheets can be converted, or will they just end up as bitmaps too?

>Gripe 2: There appears to have
>been no consultation of the
>community of users.

That is not the case. They have not necessarily listened, but they have consulted. However, some of the "features" of Prime obviously were not implemented as a user suggestion, and could not possibly have been implemented with the blessing of any existing users. For example, which users would think it's a good idea not to read .mcd files?

>Gripe 4: But it's not
>just the program that is slow,
>the constant interaction with
>the ribbon just to write text
>or select a different option
>is a very slow, clunky
>process.

I really, strongly dislike the ribbon. I am against the death penalty as a matter of principle, but I could make an exception for whoever at MS thought up the ribbon. Maybe even an exception for crucifixion.

>Gripe 5: Broad ranging changes
>in keyboard shortcuts and
>formatting.

For some of these I can see why they did it. The new ones are more logical. For others though, I don't get it. Why change recalculate from Ctrl F9 to Ctrl F5? As far as I can tell Ctrl F9 isn't even used for anything else.

Richard
StuartBruff
23-Emerald III
(To:RichardJ)

On 8/26/2009 11:29:20 AM, rijackson wrote:
>>Gripe 2: There appears to have been no consultation of the community of users.
== That is not the case. They have not necessarily listened, but they have consulted.

That's what I thought ...

== However, some of the "features" of Prime obviously were not implemented as a user suggestion, and could not possibly have been implemented with the blessing of any existing users. For example, which users would think it's a good idea not to read .mcd files?

I have given up second guessing what some (many, many) users might regard as desirable ... SUC came about because somebody wanted it badly enough to throw away capability that several of us deemed more desirable.

>>Gripe 4: But it's not just the program that is slow, the constant interaction with the ribbon just to write text or select a different option is a very slow, clunky process.
== I really, strongly dislike the ribbon. I am against the death penalty as a matter of principle, but I could make an exception for whoever at MS thought up the ribbon. Maybe even an exception for crucifixion.

Hah! Before you know it, you'll be reading your Daily Mail (or US equivalent) agreeing with every "Hanging's too good for the blighters!" headline that appears 🙂

Personally, I'm waiting for the inventor of MS Word to appear within 1000 yds of me when I've got one of these about my person http://www.accuracyinternational.com/ <vbeg>

>>Gripe 5: Broad ranging changes in keyboard shortcuts and formatting.
== For some of these I can see why they did it. The new ones are more logical. For others though, I don't get it. Why change recalculate from Ctrl F9 to Ctrl F5? As far as I can tell Ctrl F9 isn't even used for anything else.

Hopefully, the less logical ones will get sorted out in the wash; perhaps the F9 series and others are reserved with programming and symbolics in mind?

Stuart
RichardJ
19-Tanzanite
(To:StuartBruff)

On 8/26/2009 2:03:04 PM, stuartafbruff wrote:

>Hah! Before you know it, you'll be
>reading your Daily Mail (or US
>equivalent) agreeing with every
>"Hanging's too good for the blighters!"
>headline that appears 🙂

You could probably get "Hanging's too good for the inventor of the Ribbon" printed in the Daily Mail if you started the rumor that there will soon be a new EU regulation requiring that the ribbon be used in all software.

Richard

So you don't like Ribbon? You aren't alone.

Google results (which are approximates)
ribbon interface hate
2,640,000

ribbon interface love
306,000

People dislike it so much that one of the hottest selling add-ons converts the ribbon into the old menu bar:
http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/

What's surprising is that Microsoft has a patent on this technology and charges a license fee to any competing company using it (if it chooses to), or a license agreement to everyone else. This agreement strongly restricts what a development company can do:

http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma/archive/2008/07/20/the-evil-of-the-office-ui-ribbon-license.aspx

There are third party tools that add ribbons in to applications easily, but it's the end development company that is meant to sign the license, and poptentially pay a fee in the future if Microsoft so wishes.

So not only does it take up real estate and slow down work but it also reduces the developer's options and increases the liability for future software expenses.

Philip
___________________
Nobody can hear you scream in Euclidean space.

This is a good survey, with lots of comments:

http://www.exceluser.com/explore/surveys/ribbon/ribbon-survey-results.htm


This one might sound familiar: "The worst thing is that some keyboard shortcuts don't work anymore."

Or this one (there are lots like this): "The new ribbon creates additional steps you must take in order to do the same things that simple menus and toolbars allowed in previous versions."


There are some other nice ones:

"Who ever came up with the ribbon idea should have their [body part] sewn closed."

"Bad move guys. We all hate to admit that we made a mistake but this Ribbon is really a mistake on a grand scale."

"Too much extra clicking, big goofy icons that waste work space. It's a big unfortunate step backwards. What the hell were they thinking!"

"Get rid of this f...ing thing I can't stand it!!!!!"

And whoever wrote this REALLY doesn't like it!

"Whatever moron signed off on this should be taken out the back, shot, set on fire, put out, set on fire again and shot some more...they are amongst the worlds worst application architects with no f----g clue as to how to design something that is actually easy for the end user to use...

The number of ordinary users I have had complaining about this bollocksed interface is beyond measure - the only ones who like it are the simpletons and the dumbarses who don't actually work with the product on a day to day basis..."

There are lots more.

Richard
jjak
1-Newbie
(To:RichardJ)

Gripe 1: The features that will not be included in Prime 1.0. This is my number 1 gripe because even if given the final product for free it is absolutely useless to me.

Our company agrees, this version will be useless to us as is. We need full compatibility (be able to read existing worksheets) and functionality of v14 before it is useful to us plus enhancements to v14. As others have stated, we are taking a wait and see attitude regarding the upcoming Prime 2.0 version. After seeing Prime 1, I had to convince our managers to renew our maintenance contracts for Mathcad. I had to convince them that the developers of Mathcad/Prime would be foolish to alienate their installed base of clients.
I also agree that this version should not be released as a replacement for v14. It would not make any sense to do so.




Gripe 2: There appears to have been no consultation of the community of users.

We were not a part of the Alpha test so we cannot comment on this grip.



Gripe 3: The fact that worksheets are "paper" based in layout. Ummm... WHY!!!!???? This is 2009, not 1999!!! Things just aren't printed as much as they were a decade ago.

We print 100% of our worksheets for our submittals and bids as well as distribute PDF files to both US and Metric based communities. I agree with a previous poster for structural engineers, printing is still very important and is useful for bids and design submittals which is what we use Mathcad for. In fact, we waited until the appearance of the �Explicit� keyword before it was an acceptable tool for us to use for our calculations and documentation.

Given the current state of Prime 1, I would not recommend devoting a lot of effort into improving the printing (yet!) but rather bringing Prime up to full compatibility with Mathcad 14 by Prime 2.

When computers were first introduced, it was thought that the demand for paper would fall. It has in fact increased as now anyone that can afford a computer and printer (and ink cartridges) can print.




Gripe 4: The data entry is VERY slow.

We agree, it is slow, especially and painfully slow for large worksheets (in excess of 50 pages) and it also requires more system memory than v14.




Gripe 5: Broad ranging changes in keyboard shortcuts and formatting.

We agree here too, we need the same "right click" functionality or features for hiding the left hand side of an equation as well as keyboard shortcuts etc.

RE the printing...

The point is a little moot as apparently they are addressing this anyway... but I'm just trying to clarify my point.

I can understanding printing things out from Mathcad, although I don't do much of that myself.

But my central point is that Excel doesn't lay out it's worksheets as "pages". Yes you can print, and you have powerful print processes. But in Excel you are centrally concerned with values and their relationship. Therefore the base layout is massive free form table.

You only print after you have put the data were you want, and potentially applied calculations, generated graphs, added images and formatted results.

And that is what Mathcad should be.

Yes it should allow powerful print options of a quality suitable for publication and/or presentations. However, fundamentally the workspace should facilitate "Mathematical Computer Aided Design" (MCAD) and SECONDARILY provide powerful print options.

What's wrong with the current layout (which apparently is marked down for revision anyway) is that it does not lend itself to MCAD, which from my perspective defeats the purpose of the application.

Philip
___________________
Nobody can hear you scream in Euclidean space.

We are now redoing many of the keyboard shortcuts to match those in previous versions of Mathcad.

Mona
SteenGroðe
6-Contributor
(To:mzeftel)

On 9/18/2009 3:43:05 PM, MonaZ wrote:
>We are now redoing many of the
>keyboard shortcuts to match
>those in previous versions of
>Mathcad.
>
>Mona
Sound partly good - but honestly some of the old ones have to be moved. The may be some US-keyboard layout behind the logic but beside this almost no logic at all.
Take all the equals. Most of the can be moved to = on combination with Ctrl, Alt, and AltGr (shift cannot come into play as this is already pressed to have 😃 But the four most important equals (= := == and right arrow with keyword) can be attached to =.

But lets have space back as a switch to text and why not move shift+Ctrl+a to shift+space? And at the same time make shift+space reverse cycling the math cursor.

Steen Gro�e
RichardJ
19-Tanzanite
(To:SteenGroðe)

On 9/19/2009 2:00:39 PM, sgrode wrote:

>Sound partly good -
>but honestly some of the old ones have
>to be moved.

I don't have too much of a problem with some of the changes to more logical keys, but some of the changes made no sense at all. Why change recalculate from Ctrl F9 to Ctrl F5? Why no longer use the Ins key to toggle the cursor?

>The may be some US-keyboard
>layout behind the logic

If there is, I'm missing it.

> but beside this
>almost no logic at all.
Take all the
>equals. Most of the can be moved to = on
>combination with Ctrl, Alt, and AltGr

What's AltGr? I think you must only get that on certain language keyboards.

Richard

F5 is Refresh for many Windows programs, although F9 is Calculate for Excel.

TTFN,
Eden
SteenGroðe
6-Contributor
(To:RichardJ)

This: "What's AltGr? I think you must only get that on certain language keyboards." gave me an idea. I don't know if good or bad but anyway:

What if PTC made an keyboard extension that comes with Mathcad Prime? I know it is something like this Texas Instruments are doing. It will prevent a lot of pirating but this may be a boomerang as pirating is one of the best ways to get software known and sold.

But it can take care of all the shortcuts.

They have to make a virtual version as well given all the IWB's around.

Steen Gro�e
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