I don't know Robert... I we're very limited by the ribbon. I don't see how we're any better (or worse) than MS Office. Mapkeys? Mapkeys surely aren't the answer... you can make macros in MS Office, too.
I don't see how you can make the case that by restricting the users and forcing them into one interface over another that you're somehow making things better. Unless you can back up that claim with quantifiable proof, I call "BS". And I can tell you, claiming the ribbon is somehow better is just that, Bravo Sierra (BS). It is more modern... that's about it.
I find it easier to use the ribbon. Only the options are exposed that I need at that time. I am not spending as much time searching for icons or commands. Adding more options to the right mouse click is helpful too. Think about the history of the phone number everyone hated them in the late 1800's but eventually we all adopted. Personally I have found PTC's enhancements are right on at least 95% of the time. Our overall training cost will be lower, same thing happened when Microsoft consolidated their software suite , Excel, Powerpoint, Access and Outlook. Revolutionized the business world as we know it today. Don't care who you are, you can' deny it.
Consolidation of the software suite is a much different move than changing the design interface. PTC is consolidating its products as much as possible... and that's a good thing. I just do not see the same performance gains from the ribbon that you do.
I think PTC's interface changes are spot on many times. Yet there have been annoying hiccups and trouble spots with the Wildfire interface since it's inception. These were never addressed. At times it feels like the people who designed the software don't actually use it. I could give examples but this thread has truly jumped the shark.
We shall have to agree to disagree. Hopefully the newer versions of Creo still in development will continue to refine the interface (not change it wholesale but refine it) while providing more options for customization.
I have to agree with the general idea that expressing likes and dislikes about the software is a very good thing. This is a good portion of what the Technical Committees are all about. I can say that I know PTC has been beaten up many times for problems from Wildfire that still have not been fixed. It's fun to watch the PTC PM's roll their eyes every time you mention how there's still an old menu manager in some nook or cranny. Then there are times that it really seems that marketing is driving changes for their own reasons (addressing competitor funcitonality?).
In regards to the Americans with Disabilities Act, I do believe that has greatly impacted a lot in the area of icons and colors. I'm definitely not a fan of many of the icon changes just to make things look "pretty". If the argument is that it's a calculated decision to make it easier for people with color blindness to discern between icons, then I can't really argue.
As for screen real estate, I completely agree! Creo 1 definitely had some shortfalls in that area. I haven't played with Creo 2 enough to determine if it's much better, but I will soon. Unlike Brian, I usually try to avoid mapkeys and customizations. It makes it really difficult for me to switch machines or help other users when I'm used
Finally, in regards to the younger generation and Creo, I have plenty experience with them diving in and driving like pros in no time.
Having too many mapkeys and customizations does make it very tough to do support work. You arrive to help a user and he doesn't have any of your customizations... so you have to use the interface for what it is. While I have mapkeys and customizations, I also have a "default" setup, too so I can switch quickly and help people with an OOTB (out of the box) configuration.
And the younger generation... they seem pick up the software very easily. But that's always the case. One day we'll have to call them to operate simple things like the TV remote- just like my mom does now!
I guess my biggest problem with the Creo UI is not just the ribbon. It is the idea that the prompt interface is all over the screen. This is the usability that the ribbon has obscured.
-If- I were king, I would dedicate the user input UI below the ribbon... not by taking up more space, but by some "smart ribboning" where the ribbon would reduce to "one line" leaving access to still-open choices, but opening up the tabs below the ribbon. Likewise, make the edict that -ALL- data collection be moved to this same space. Not only do you have mouse clicks, but you have to consider mouse moves. The one that gets me every time is the old selection query when you activate the appearance manager. I -never- see that menu pop up in the upper right corner.
I suspect it is much more than the ribbon that we are "not liking"... it is the poor implementation of -completeness-... one of those subjective "fit and finish" perceptions. At least when M$ did this, it was unified... not so for Creo. It has a very "cheaped out" development feel to it. Almost like a study group implementation half way onto development.
That's right. Who decides what particular command should be under each tab by default in the first place?
This question should have been asked before making the default ribbon layout and with a little of thought then there would be no ribbon at all cause it does really make little to no sense especially for a power user that is in it for a while.
I always wonder what is going wrong there. Because on almost every PTC webminar I've watched so far in the last 7 months the presenter talks about this ribbon thing. It's the same old story over and over again. From the first time I heard it I ask myself what's it's impact on the tools of the software? How the positioning of the icons really matter while you can get used to anything? Even 200 of 3 to 4 letter mapkeys...
And my answer is still the same. They want to waste some time on the webminars with this nonsense. I see nothing really on the ribbon UI. If they wanna talk about ribbon they should do that in ribbon webminar.
It made me laugh when I've just read all posts in this thread alltogether again and then read the summary in this blog post: http://communities.ptc.com/blogs/ptcexpress/2012/07/30/understanding-the-creo-20-ribbon-interface
Ok, now on the serious note. It's kind of backstabbing from PTC to just take out an environment (GUI) that has been vital to seasoned users in terms of productivity and try to force these people to move to a new GUI that the devs or whoever in charge there thinks is more productive.
Well the new GUI maybe is more productive but who is to say that? The poor dev? So anyway the new GUI should come out while keeping the ability to switch to old GUI with the so called "disable_ribbon_ui yes" config.pro option so a seasoned user can work in this new version of the software while maintaining their productivity. And in the meantime moving onto that new breakthrough technology called ribbon UI.
You know there are still some clones of AutoCAD 2000 maybe cause the new AutoCAD has the ribbon. Even tho it already has it for like 5 years but for some of us its still new since we didn't bother to switch but nevermind.
The problem does not lie exactly in the ribbon in particular. The big deal of this is when someone has so much experience with the software and is so good at using it and manages to do certain tasks in plenty of ways such that this person does never bother thinking about how to really use the CAD tool anymore (or any other tool) but only has to think about what things to get done, about what is the outcome in particular.
You can hardly get to this point in one year with such complex tool even if you use it 8 hours a day.
Thats when it really becomes backstabbing if you have to adapt to such change and I am also surprised why there is so little complaining about that.
Why theres so few people who know how to use the software willing to put it right into PTC's face? That PTC has too few mavens in high places and comes up with stupid decisions. Why is that? Is the tool too complex already that you can't come up with updates to please everyone?
With my tiny experience in design using CAD tools I might not know what I am talking about but I sense there it would be better for me to learn how to master couple of other CAD tools in case Creo changes drastically again. Which I think is going to happen as PTC doesn't seem to have any strategy from now on. At least that's how it seems to me at the moment.
"If you don't like the ribbon technology then you are going to hate Microsoft and all the other applications taking the same path."
Well, hate is a strong word...
However, whilst I'm trying not to be a Luddite, I can't help feeling that the change to Ribbon in Excel (the Office app I use the most) has mostly added one or two extra clicks to every menu pick; and whilst it's supposed to display all the stuff you want for a particular task, I keep finding that actually the thing I want is hidden under a tiny drop-down arrow.
I know it's happening and we just have to roll with it, but it seems backwards to make all the click sequences (or Alt+key sequences) longer. Accessibility for newbies is all well and good, but it shouldn't be at the expense of efficiency for users who are prepared to really learn the software.
I have been working with CAD since the late 80's. I have seen VERY FEW software changes which added more value than they took away. Most are 1% valuable change and 99% "change for its own sake". The ribbon, which now appears in SolidWorks and Inventor (haven't seen SolidEdge for a while) is a shining example. It works no better than the old interface, but forces the user to change all modus operandi. If you're a user like me, who operates on "autopilot" for most command selection, it's a waste of literally weeks of time... for no gain. LEAVE THE INTERFACE ALONE!!! As that may not be clear enough for the marketers who seem to run all four of the leading CAD companies, let me be more specific: LEAVE THE @#$%^& INTERFACE ALONE!!!!
I do agree to an extent. I don't have a problem with companies "trying new things" but they should always leave a legacy switch available. This is what PTC failed to do.
I remember when Cadkey got a facelift and -everyone- was flying using the function keys for command sequences. All of the sudden, F1 meant "help" and productivity ground to a halt. Cadkey put out a Legacy switch PDQ due tot he outcry. That option existed from then on.
As for the downtime... it costs companies a lot of money for this kind of change. Many just sucked it up but as an independent contractor, I am spending my free time to learn the new interface and functionality. I only touched on WF (3.0) for about 3 months and hated it, now Creo.
If the context sensitive help actually helped, and if the help files were up to date (with Creo references instead of WF or even Pro/E) life would be a bit simpler... but the overall rollout of Creo was just half baked... and that is a huge part of why it is so painful. Even some level of "guided" command structure would have been nice. Alas, PTC hadn't changed in all these years. I really thought they had. A new coat of paint doesn't count.
I don't know about a legacy switch.. that leads people to never move forward and creates a cost to maintenance paying customers to support this development. I liked the menu mapper they used moving to Wildfire That was clever and easy to use.
Sorry... it's just that I have seen massive improvements in the interface and functionality not to mention integration... I remember using the old Intergraph software package working weekends just trying to get a simple assembly drawing completed.. we would wait 30 min just for booliens to merge. The new ribbon is not that bad once you get use to it. End of the day someone in 10 years i going to be complainin about how great the ribbon was and how the new bla bla i just horrible.
Hate it. this is the worst kind of crapware i have ever seen. It so bad, that im thinking about leaving a really good job, just to get out of it.
Parametrics dont regenerate stable
geometric constrainst fall apart
patterns, wont update. for no apparrent reason.
geometric constraints in skeches, redefine, move and create at will.
load/weights dont update correctly.
I cant use entered load data on purchased parts, to do anything.
The abuse of my poor arm. whoever makes this, have a click fettich. the amount of hand movement/cliking is at least double that of AD inventor.
Things fail, but the trafic light is still green.
WHEN the trafic light is red, the only way of locating the problem, is writing down the part name on a piece of paper, the using the find function to find the part.. WHY cant i just right click it, then find in tree, the function is there
No solutions to problems. Just workarounds. ( i feel like the dashboard in my car has lost all lighting, and im sitting in the car with a flashlight in my mouth. YES i can see the dash, no i dont like driving like that)
The borow licens feature broke. For no apperant reason. The fix, was an old one. But not implemented in the setup.
un intuitive menus
The unatended install doesnt work
Comming from inventor, now i have to get used to calculating between
some menues cant be activated by enter, or by midlle clicking. meaning MORE mouse work
The list just goes on and on and on.
one day a hole can be made with thread.. The next the same hole has to be redefined as a hole with cosmetic thread. The third day, i had to redo it, as an extrution, with a cosmetic thread..
I cant alter a hole, from a threaded, to a non threaded, without loosing my patterns.
No easy way to do any logic programming. In inventor, when something bothered me, i could do a macro. Here i can record a mapkey, to always do the same. Meaning, that if i want to do something to all part, i have to select them one by one, and THEN activate my mapkey.
Then theres the things that need a drawing to explain
Granted, the new menus, are better than the old ones... But the old ones are still here
i dont trust it, because things dont update.
i cant fix half of the problems, because the menues are old an undocumented.
i cant do a construction, and with a good feeling in my stomach say.. now its right. Because i dont know.
Yeah, I have had the same feelings when I saw Autodesk Inventor 2012 Professional for the first time.
Creo Parametric is not worse - it is different.
You'll like it, I'm sure.
hmm, they do say its a love/hate relationchip.
crapo instead of creo ?
right now im at the hate stage.
Unfortunatly i have, as yet, found 3 things i like.
The replace function, though the userinterface is crap, works like a charm.
The way you can change a pattern, to be table driven is nice. Again, not easy to find, or understand how to use. Still a nice feature.
the way it rotates using the middle button is cool.
Thats it for my experience.
i even forgot to mention the single most commen reason for problems, not related to the software itself being crap.
The way, that config.pro files work.
1. Read in program dir.
2. Read in current dir.
3. Read in user dir.
When you save youre settings they will overwrite 2, with ALL youre options.
Next time you open, 3, will overwrite the last settings.
AND as we use them.
1. Program settings / try to fix most of the crap.
2. Seach paths, for this project.
3. custom user mapkeys, collors and so on.
So basicly, every now and again the support f**cs up, the config pro structure, and nothing works again
The Config files UI were a big problem, and PTC worked really hard with the Technical Committees at PlanetPTC to get this fixed. The next Build of Creo 2 should have the fix in there. If you want to look at it take a look at Creo 1 M050, as it has the fix in there now.
Well thats nice to hear.
The system is actually quite smart. its just to easy to mess up, without wanting to, for the average user.
My first pro/creo xp, was creo 1, and i didnt hate it, as much as i do with the 2 now
"WHEN the trafic light is red, the only way of locating the problem, is writing down the part name on a piece of paper, the using the find function to find the part.. WHY cant i just right click it, then find in tree, the function is there"...
You can use model tree search bar and put filter on failed items.
Yah, and they say nothing good comes from complaining 🙂
thx Davor, ill give that a go, in 6 minutes, when something goes bad (not crapo's fault)
i found another thing i like. Even miss in inventor
The abillity to click on a drawing head txt, and just change it, thereby changing the parameters.
What i cant quite figure out, are the rules for when i need to click -> right click / dbl click / alt + click to select.
i just dont see the logic
That's like saying: "I really hate Creo because working with it is like being poked in the eye but I like Inventor because it's more like being poked in the eye with a hot knife."
Given enough time we could make one massive hybrid CAD software. If you want to change parameters, you could go to Tools->Parameters or right-click and edit model attributes or double-click the drawing banner or hit F1 or tap the middle mouse button 3 times... etc.
What would happen if we did that? Everyone would complain that the system was too complex. There's already two or three ways to do most things in Creo. In this new hybrid system there'd be a dozen. No one would understand the system. Everyone would hate it. Training classes would be a nightmare.And then some fool would interrupt to say "Meh, Solidworks is still better" at which point I'd just punch them.
hmm, i get your point. My point is, that crapo has 2 - 3ways of doing things, because today method one will not work. Therefore wee added method nr. 2 instead of fixing it. Then that worked for some time, until it didnt, then we created posibility 3.
I dont want a program that can do everything in every way.
It would however be nice, to have a program that can do what it says it can, without having to set 50 config options.
I know i proberbly wont find to many inventor lovers inhere.. i get that.
and i think you misunderstood. i LOVE the way, i can edit parameters directly from a drawing.. I know i can do it in 4/5 other ways also.
This was actually the only place i have seen in creo, where i didnt have to go through 25 clicks to do what i want.
If i want to correct the drawing head data, i click them ! . Thats user friendly, Inv can learn something here ( i did my own put data in drawing head menu, because the "real" way sucked)
Now to stay consisten with the other menus and so on, i would like a menu, where i have to move the mouse to the upper left of my screen to press ok, as my only option.
Now some good there is in the crapo way of doing top down.. We found out, that by using the concepts that crapo is forcing me to use, the model/assys in inventor became more robust.
Its more the lack of userfriendlyness, and stability that im mad about.
The sudden and unexplained faillure of thing long done.
Its more the lack of userfriendlyness, and stability that im mad about.
I certainly agree with you on this point. There's an inelegance to many of PTC's products- not just Creo. I know the developers would probably disagree but, with all due respect, they're too close to the product. When you work day and night on a team developing software, you're too close to it. You can't see that it's not really working very cleanly... or that it's difficult to understand.
PTC's developers need a completely outside team to do something like a deep dive into the workings of their software. If you're unfamiliar with what this is... here's a classic video from ABC's Nightline about 12 years ago that explains how the process works. The entire point is to assemble a team of creative people to really examine the requirements of a product, process or service. The team employs more than just technical people like programmers- but artists, behavioral specialists, and others. The link is here...
Imagine if PTC turned over control of the user interface to a team like this... we'd have something beautiful, simple, and tremendously functional.
im with you there.
Its like when a cook wont give you salt an pepper, because the taste is "right"
As mentioned, i have done quite a bit of user interfaces for custom inventor tools, i have also done som robot programming.
In both cases i always had to go home and redo the control menu, to get the users what would fit their workflow, instead of the workflow of the program.
Ex: i wanted, partnumber, subvariant, produce numbers
The users wanted, callname, subvariant, partnumber.
so i had to add, a callname / produce number database, and make the menus accept the other order of doing things.
The program i made by programmers, and proberbly needs a "can we combine these tools, that do the same" check.
My guess/ feeling, as a programmer is, there is too much crap, left in crapo
And could we PLEASE, add the alt-tab, to change windows ?
I know its proberbly a leftover from the old unix days.
I know its because you cant work on more than one part, but OMG.. until i figured out, that crapo wants me to change windows, in ITS OWN window manager i rebooted the computer
Its not a leftover from Unix... it -is- from those same days.
I moved onto UG NX from Pro/E. Now there is an open intuative system. And it took all of a month for users to totally hose the modeling philosophy we got use to. After that, the whole CAD world went to the cr@pper.
What you are experiencing is discipline. A rare thing these days in CAD. PTC has loosed the ranes a bit, but only a bit.
But I hear you on the UI. It is far from finishied... or at least -refined-. I don't think anyone is holding their breath waiting for it to get better. You either love it or hate it. I'm still undecided. Regardless, I am making a living with it.
i have to admit to not ever having even openned NX, so i cant comment.
i wouldnt call it dicipline.
right now im so frustrated, with things that worked for weeks, faling apart.
i think ill talk to my boss.
Proberbly its just a case of getting your mind the rigth way, for the program.
Inventor has its quirks, but 10-15 years og practice, has me going around most of them.
Creo doesnt seem to work.
Things fall appart at will.
Then i recreate them, as they were, and now they work.
It doesnt update/regenerate when it says it does/ is told to.
The support, cant tell me what im doing wrong.
Basicly, my problem is going to be, that i cant trust it.
As a professionel. i now have to check all drawings/models, before committing to production.
That means at least another weeks work.
I think ille ask my boss, to give me more inventor work.
The problem here being, my problems cant be fixed.
Im also not getting better /faster, because there is no obvius way, to enhance what im doing.
The commands arent to be found... Thats not to say, they arent there. Just to say, i have no way of knowing they are there.
In inventor, there are buttons/ikons, and every day, idd click a new one.
In Crapo, everything is hidden in rightclicks, that are full of things that are either not needed, not documented, or just doesnt do anything here.
Lots of the right clicks, lead to an old style menu, thats even less informative.
ill ask my boss to take in more inventor work.
If he wont, ille have to do it myself.
As it is, i hate creo a little more each day