Is it me or has PTC lost it's way

[Johny]

Have been a user of Pro-E (now CREO, for some unknown reason) since release 2001 and although, initially the program had new developments with subsequent releases, the later versions are a joke!

The sheet metal module has not changed significantly from Wildfire 3, to produce a paper 2d drawing is such a long winded process that it makes you want to give up. With each release they change the position of the menu structure so you have to spend the next couple of months looking for commands. The mapkeys that you spent so long setting up, no longer work. It's a mess!

My discipline is sheet metal and CREO is rubbish at it. It does not even have a library of standard primitives that most CAD programs have been using since the eighties. By that, I mean 'Conical Frustum's, 'Square to Rounds', 'Pipe Branches' etc. These are from known formulas that sheet metal workers have been using for decades. These basic formulas include triangulation and radial and parallel line developments. Why should it be so difficult to develop sheet metal work from within CREO? I believe that Solid Works has this ability but we are stuck with CREO for parity with the companies we deal with.

My other major gripe is the 2D Drawing side. Surely by now, a certain amount of automation should be entering this module. If you get it to auto dimension, it does not do it intelligently but throws every dimension on to the drawing. Does anybody use auto dimensioning in CREO? The alternative is fairly long winded which is why most of our customers just throw a model at us and we are left with dimensioning and producing drawings for manufacture and inspection. The use of BOMS and tables are not very intuitive and this side of CREO has not changed from 2001 days.

All in all, a huge disappointment. After all the hype about CREO it has failed to live up to expectations. We are only a small company and only hold 4 licenses, but we have decided to drop our maintenance cover for the foreseeable future as we find it hard to justify a product that is going nowhere. Perhaps we will pick it up again when PTC finally realise that their customers are not prepared to support their 'bloatware' when they can't even fix the fundamentals.

Does anyone else out there feel as I do? If so hit them where it hurts and drop your maintenance payments until PTC listen to what their customers want.

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[gvora]

WHAT PTC NEEDS, IS ADAPTIBILITY AND PRAGAMETIC APPROCH, WHICH IN MY OPINION AGAINST

PTC MANAGEMENT CULTURE.

[PierrePatenaude]

I follow you on most of these issues.

I believe that PTC is run by people that don't care much about users and focusses more on ways to make more money.

For instance, training cost for PTC products are too expensive. They probably take a good part of their revenues with that. This might explain why they like scrambling around the menus with every releases, so they can sell more training and upgrades sessions. In comparision, locally, the Solidworks reseller don't charge anything for upgrade sessions (sessions where you learn the changes from one release to the other). And they give you a coffee and a donut for attending ! PTC charges for these sessions.

Another example of bad customer service, is that there a no more reseller in Canada (where I am located). We have to deal with a company based in Arizona now. So we don't have any technical support in french at all here (which is the language we speak in this part of Canada) from PTC like we used to. In comparision, Solidworks and Solid Edge both have local reseller that can provide on site technical service, when needed. And they speak the local language. PTC is cutting costs on the back of the users.

The case of sheetmetal, is a perfect example of bad user comprehension. It is obvious that the PTC people who worked on these don't have a clue about sheetmetal is.

I still like the product very much, and I don't think that I will drop my licenses like you are proposing. But I think that changes need to be made at the head of this company. I have read on the web that they want to be now more focus on PLM products then CAD products. But in any case, they need to start listening more about the users and less about the Dow Jones.

[Johny]

Thanks for the support Pierre. It's about time that PTC heard how it's customers really felt instead of patting themselves on the back for producing a poor product. I have to agree with you that their number one priority appears to be profit, profit and yet more profit.Much like the banking system in Europe, which is why we are in the mess were in!

[Johny]

I'm with you there brother. I use wildfire 4 by preference as I believe that it was the most polished version. I think that the CREO GUI was copied from the later versions of microsoft office, has that same look.

[Patriot_1776]

Yep. I don't like the "lead vs. follow" mentality of WF, but it doesn't frustrate me and slow me down anything like the creo GUI does, especially in dwg mode. Sad that a lot of long-time users hate the new GUI......and it seems like they're not going to change their mind and admit they were wrong and fix it. I would have a TON of respect for any company that admitted a mistake and fixed it to make the customers happy.

The ribbon in M/S Word, Excel, etc. is also hideous. Why would you copy a BAD IDEA????

[Vladimir_G]

Hello, everyone.

I highly appreciate your view points and your experience.

Personally, I prefer the graphical user interface of Creo Parametric.

For me it was relly irritating when toolbars were constantly changing their positions during the session as it was in Pro/Engineer Wilde Fire 5.0.

But that is just my opinion.

Kind regards, Vladimir.

[BurtLand]

Have to agree with you Vlad - the ribbon interface is a big improvement BOTH in OFFICE and in CREO. As more and more functionality gets added it has to be put somewhere with some visibility and this interface provides it. The old pull down menus that was invented for the MACINTOSH needed an overhaul and MS has done it reasonably well - its leap frogged Apple.

PTC NOW need to get rid of the rest of the MENU MANAGER and continue reworking some of the poor early interfaces - Appearance Manager is new and rubbish; PDFs might finally be usable, and well drawing line types and colors are still archane - I suspect even PTC doesnt know how that works ! Seems Measures and Cross Sections have been updated in CREO2. Pity an automatic report isnt generated from Measure.

Its very poor form on PTCs part to think they can leave MM there and it seriously detracts from an otherwise good update.

With regards training, theres 100s of FREE tutorials in LearningExchange - quite useful

http://learningexchange.ptc.com/tutorial/1616/creating-planar-part-cross-sections

[Johny]

We seem to be straying of the path here. My gripe is not primarily about the GUI or the Ribbon interface, it is about the core fundamentals of the program. In my opinion, they seem to spend more time and money making the interface look pretty than to fix the obvious short falls in the software.

I think we are all agreed that the sheet metal module is abysmal and was written by programmers with no idea of the complexities of sheet metal design. And I think that we can also agree that it is probably easier to create a 2d drawing in AutoCAD than it is in CREO.

There are repeated discussions on this site about the lost opportunities within the structure of the program, and it is painfully obvious that PTC do not listen or care. So come on guys, start lobbying PTC to come up with a better product or maybe we should all be looking at moving to Solid Works. I re-iterate, hit them where it hurts and drop your maintenance payments.

[Patriot_1776]

Seriously Burt? The ribbon is an IMPROVEMENT? Perhaps you missed all the threads here where the vast majority HATES it? My new users are frustrated with it, especially the ones coming from Solidworks. I've been using Pro/E at an expert level for over 15 years now, and I have NEVER seen a worse interface. I can tell you, at least for an expert user, it takes me at LEAST twice as long to do anything in modeling mode. And, in the case of drawing mode with that retarded ribbon, it's more like 4-10 times. That you have to be in the correct tab to do anything is reprehensible. I refuse to use it and have stayed on WF4 because it's far more efficient. I don't need to have happy colors and soft interfaces to get my job done. Give me simple, direct, easy to use menus in a system that doesn't think it's smarter than I am and pretend to know what i want to do next. As in gages in fighter aircraft and racecars, simpler is demonstratably better and faster. High contrast black on white is far easer to read at a glance. That's been proven time and again in numerous studies. The new low-contrast colors are hideous and hard to read.

I can probably create a dwg faster on the drafting borad than in creo........

[James62]

 I agree with you on the most you have stated here also on what you have said in your other posts/threads which is that Pro/E WF5 and Creo Elements/Pro 5.0 drawing interfaces should be trashed.

But I do think you might wanna check Creo Parametric 2.0 drawing mode especially. It's a little easier to create bunch of xsecs and dims in drawing now. I can't compare with WF4 but I really think they've updated drawing mode this time. In Creo Parametric 1.0 it's still pretty horrid.

The new mesure tool in Creo Parametric 2.0 is actually slower productivity wise with at least one click that is needed to perform with each new measurement because it opens some stupid extra tab that needs to be closed everytime by clicking on a tiny "x" in order to do anything else then.

What I do like on Creo 2.0 is the overall software performace which is much better than in Creo 1.0.

To overcome the trouble with ribbon user interface I've set up over 170 mapkeys so far. It's kind of hard to memorize that many and I would rather use some kind of hotkeys that can be actived with RMB or MMB after being typed in. It's so easy to make a typo while typing in a mapkey and deleting it to be able to retype it again can't be considered as productive.

One year ago when I started with Pro/E I thought it would be more of a CAD for a power user than a toy for a kid but here we go at this time of year.

I guess these non sense changes with GUI happen because more and more people (%'s wise) is being dragged into CAD world lately.

Regards

~Jakub

[GrahameWard]

"As more and more functionality gets added"... where is this added functionality? It looks the same to me, just re-packaged.

The ribbon is junk. I just needed 4 mouse clicks to shade the model. I have added the shade and hiddenline to the QuickAcess Toolbar but I can't do that to every command. This was added to get Microsoft accreditation, not to make our jobs easier. It's an absolute disgrace.

[Patriot_1776]

Couldn't agree more.......

[KrisR]

John,

I come from 8 years of 3D modeling in Catia, Solidworks and Inventor. I can tell you that I surely miss some of the basic, common sense functionality (core concepts) that all three of the other programs contain.

We are a bit archaic at my current place of employment; we still do our dwgs in ACAD due to the fact that we have an ecatalog program that interfaces with the ACAD drawings. We do our dwg layouts in Creo/Pro 5. Normally, I can spend time in any prrogram and be able to figure out how to do a drawing view or add a dimension. In Creo/Pro 5 I could not. I had to be shown the fundamentals that I needed in order to do my job.

From what I hear from the old-timers  is that the drawing interface, no matter what version, isn't is as robust as it could and should to be. I know that in SW, drawings were a breeze and VERY accurate. You could dim a model precisely how you wanted it to look in the drawing and it would! It was great. Catia was very robust in regards to drawings and accuracy as well. But both being from Dassault, that does not surprise me.

I can't see that PTC will be able to keep going they way they are and not end up at the bottom of the 3D modeling software distributors. I know I experience daily frustrations in Creo/Pro 5 from things that just don't make a damn bit of sense when compared to all the other modeling programs out there. Am I saying that PTC needs to follow the herd? No, but they do need to step up their game and catch up to the conventions around them.

[Patriot_1776]

An aside on this, I just got off a call from a researcher retained by some Wall St. Firms about how us users felt about PTC's direction. I gave him both barrels, in my usual brutally honest way. That makes 2 in a couple months now. Maybe the investors can force some of the changes needed?

(....now, where's my rotten tomato,,,,,,?)

[KrisR]

Feel free to direct them to me for opinions as well. I'd be happy to give one.........

(I threw away all the rotten ones this weekend...)

[gvora]

I WOULD SUGGEST THAT EVERYBODY HERE SHOULD BY THE STOCK OF PTC AND VOTE AGAINST

STOCK OPTION AND THE SALARY SHOULD BE LINKED TO THE SALES & PROFIT.

THIS IS MY OPINION.

RECENTLY THIS WORKED WITH CITI BANK, STOCK HOLDERS VOTED DOWN THE CEO PAY RAISE.

GAUTAM VORA.

[KrisR]

Gautam,

Please turn off you caps lock....that's considered yelling on the internet.

Unless, of course, you meant to yell at the fellow PTC community.

Thank you

[gvora]

Kris,

Sorry, won't happen again.

Gautam Vora.

[GrahameWard]

The caps I don't mind, it's the apostrophe in the title of this thread that's bugging me

"Has PTC lost it is way" is what I read when I see it.

[GrahameWard]

I have been using ProE since 1996. Let's face it, PTC have always been pretty high handed in the treatment of their customers. I remember in 1999 when they were No.1 and nobody could come near them. They had established a huge number of new customers in the previous year or two and their customer base was awash in investment bias. My employer at the time, a small business, tried to get a good deal on a second seat and was pretty much laughed at by PTC.

Then about six months after that high water mark, overnight, they fired all their techs in all their regional offices around the world and transferred all the technical enquiries to several call centers around the world. The techs we had in Sydney Australia went into business for themselves with their own ProE seats. PTC's profits over the previous year or two must have been enormous, yet they doubled down and cut their expenditure at a time when they could have expanded their service role. It was outrageously cynical.

So, no, I don't have much regard for them in the first place. I've always been aware that my star has been hitched to PTC for many years, and I have done well out of the arrangement. It's scored me some good jobs and got me a couple of carefree years of freelancing and teaching work. Otherwise I would have switched to Solid Works many years ago. In fact it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back if this new interface proves to be as damaging to producivity as it's looking to be.

[Patriot_1776]

I agree 100%. One key thing is that they lost Andrew Deighton, a guy I highly admire. Why? Dunno yet......

[Jacek_Mydlikows]

Suppose all discussed "development" blame regarding what Pro/E became until now emerge from the way PTC makes its vast part of money - very big companies.

I think this is legacy of beginnings of PTC: focusing on big fishes. As far as I know big fishes( 200+ Pro/E seats), rarely ever are happy with too often software releases, specially those ones aimed on update of interface(try to train 200+ users). Such updates would turn into lethal design flaws and tell me who is up to confirm that?

Another thing is distribution of money regarding PTC R&D budget - first as far as I remember there were plans to cut it down(I read some PTC Earnings Call Transcript), next placing Pro/E as less important product, and focus vast part of effort on PLM contract with KIA(Windchill adoption to KIA requirements). Results are visible for all of us.

For majority of us, here at this forum it is apparent that Creo did not alter CAD market balance, nevertheless of its "laud" introduction. But I would be less critical regarding Ribbon UI implementation. To me, it as significant step forward as WF 2.0 was, and I hear all that same blames as then, from Pro/E 2001 users. At the end dashboard worked fine, and same will happen with ribbon.

I am not that involved in sheetmetal so I can`t really discussed this issue. Drawing sucks, no doubts about that.

[JASONBONIFACE]

He now works for S****works!

[Patriot_1776]

Yeah, so I've heard. I tell ya, I'm tempted to talk to SW and see if they want to hire me on a consultantcy basis. I think I could help them close or eliminate the gap between the power of Pro/E and the lesser power of SW. Maybe they'd be more apt to listen to me than PTC has been........

[BurtLand]

Somehow I dont think Solidworks will be interested in implimenting Menu Manager and Pro/E 2001 interface Frank

[Patriot_1776]

Maybe not, but but their interface was one of the things I hated about their software (hence why I hate PTC's copy of it), and they sure could use help in the types of geometry they currently can't create, and geometry is my specialty.

[BrianMartin]

Well, I've had this meltdown several times over the years... the same gripes... the same conclusions... etc.

We've needed a large scale overhaul of the basic Pro/ENGINEER tool for at least 10 years. We've bolted on patches with glue and duct-tape, and re-re-reprogrammed the interface multiple times to make it look modern. We need a serious, core code rewrite. But... we're carrying so much legacy data now, the job gets really tough.

Given the circumstances, I think there's only a few ways to really affect change and make a difference. First and foremost, I think concerned users from the community need to participate in the technical committees. Second, I think we need to exercise the Ideas forum on Planet PTC. Third, I think we need to SUPPORT third party companies who attempt to fill in where PTC falls down. That means supporting third party firms who offer superior training and consulting. Free and open competition benefits all users. As companies compete to offer the best value, the quality of support and training will rise.

I think we're far, far beyond the time of grousing about the problems we're facing. We need action. We need people willing to take a leadership role. Some of the people in the technical committees have been there for years. I'm not saying these people should step down... but I am saying we need new members, new ideas, and new energy.

PTC/User used to be a wonderful organization of concerned users. It's been swallowed up. Visit the PTC User website. It's very much circa 1997.... which is probably the last time anyone really put anything into it. We either need to resurrect it... and put some resources into making it a proper place for users to confer... or we need to kill it and start something new.

It's clear that doing the same old thing has gotten us the same old results. I've joined as many Technical Committees as one person can possibly join. I could certainly use more support if anyone else wants to jump in.

Thanks!

-Brian

[gvora]

I would suggest that everybody here may please buy the stock/share of PTC and vote against

the stock option and salary and the salary should be linked to sales growth and company profit.

Recently this worked with CITI BANK,stock holders voted down the CEO pay raise.

Gautam Vora.

[BrianMartin]

I don't know Gautam... this seems more like those old campaigns where people tried to get everyone NOT to buy gas on a Thursday so the price would drop on Friday. I don't think you could buy enough stock to make a difference in whether or not the CEO got a pay raise.

I'd prefer to encourage people to work within the systems we already have. I can't believe any company would purposely have an adversarial relationship with their customers over some short term profits. Sure, any company can rip you off for a little while. But eventually that kind of behavior will drive you into bankruptcy. So I can't believe anything PTC does that angers its users is intentional.

I have the they're doing what they think is right based on a number of factors. The problem, in my estimation, is that they're basing those decisions on incomplete data... or that they're focusing their energies in the wrong areas. This happens all the time in industry. For example... Coca-Cola thought they were going in the right direction with New Coke, didn't they? Of course!

By working within the system and bringing new voices to the table, I think we can make our concerns felt. I have to believe that's the best way to change things. Anything worth doing doesn't happen overnight.