Is it me or has PTC lost it's way

[Johny]

Have been a user of Pro-E (now CREO, for some unknown reason) since release 2001 and although, initially the program had new developments with subsequent releases, the later versions are a joke!

The sheet metal module has not changed significantly from Wildfire 3, to produce a paper 2d drawing is such a long winded process that it makes you want to give up. With each release they change the position of the menu structure so you have to spend the next couple of months looking for commands. The mapkeys that you spent so long setting up, no longer work. It's a mess!

My discipline is sheet metal and CREO is rubbish at it. It does not even have a library of standard primitives that most CAD programs have been using since the eighties. By that, I mean 'Conical Frustum's, 'Square to Rounds', 'Pipe Branches' etc. These are from known formulas that sheet metal workers have been using for decades. These basic formulas include triangulation and radial and parallel line developments. Why should it be so difficult to develop sheet metal work from within CREO? I believe that Solid Works has this ability but we are stuck with CREO for parity with the companies we deal with.

My other major gripe is the 2D Drawing side. Surely by now, a certain amount of automation should be entering this module. If you get it to auto dimension, it does not do it intelligently but throws every dimension on to the drawing. Does anybody use auto dimensioning in CREO? The alternative is fairly long winded which is why most of our customers just throw a model at us and we are left with dimensioning and producing drawings for manufacture and inspection. The use of BOMS and tables are not very intuitive and this side of CREO has not changed from 2001 days.

All in all, a huge disappointment. After all the hype about CREO it has failed to live up to expectations. We are only a small company and only hold 4 licenses, but we have decided to drop our maintenance cover for the foreseeable future as we find it hard to justify a product that is going nowhere. Perhaps we will pick it up again when PTC finally realise that their customers are not prepared to support their 'bloatware' when they can't even fix the fundamentals.

Does anyone else out there feel as I do? If so hit them where it hurts and drop your maintenance payments until PTC listen to what their customers want.

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[dhermosillo]

My updated opinion, if you need more fodder:

http://communities.ptc.com/message/222647#222647

[Edwardwp]

I agree with a lot of the posts on this issue. When I complained about the GUI, I was called old and unable to move with the times. I have been using Pro Engineer since the mid 90's, and I have seen very little change to the core functionality of the software. The only changes that have been made were to the GUI. Some of these changes have been good, but since Wildfire 3, everything has gone downhill.

I resisted changing to Creo until I was forced to change about 2 months ago, and I still hate it, every day I am modifying the ribbon, to make it faster to use.

PTC needs to spend some time watching users working on a normal, everyday job that they do, and see how the GUI should work. My biggest problem with the GUI is the amount of extra mouse clicks and mouse movement that you have to do when doing routine modelling and drafting. For example, if you are modelling and want to change from shaded view to hidden line, in Wildfire, it was just one mouse click, in Creo there are at least 3.

I would like to see the next release, with a more usable ribbon, but more importantly, they need to fix some of the core functionality with sheetmetal, Pro NC machining and other modules.

[ptc-5169382]

Fully agree, I call it 'Creo is cruely bad because the ribbon implementation is rubbish'.

Not only the ribbon UI is a disaster, also the new Measure UI ( requiring the CTRL-key to click the second point)

is a step backwards.

For large patterns, Not having the Simple sweep cut command any more is even a showstopper for our company.

Marc Verschelde

TPVision Brugge, Belgium

[remy]

I didn't read the whole thread but the ribbon can be customized.

What's your experience about the ribbon customization?

[Edwardwp]

I have plenty of experience customising the ribbon.

By the way, you can't customise all of the ribbon - try customising the "component placement" tab!

[TomD.inPDX]

Remy, welcome to the forum.

Remy, what is your area of expertise on the software?

The problem most of us have with the ribbon is that it is poorly implemented. Please see the Ribbon Angst group for more detail. Of particular concern to me are dialogs that truncate without the option of stretching the UI to se the entire field on many occasions.

Another very painful aspect is that you have to be in the right ribbon tab to do many things.

And the ribbon is a huge waste of good graphic window space. It really is very limited in customizations. You have to build your own tabs just to make a small change to the master because you cannot change the master... and you have to do this for every type of interface... once for drawings, once for parts, once for assemblies... and when you have more extensions, more customizing. It really is a full time job to build a good ribbon (or at least functional for your discipline).

Anyway, you might do well to read up on the subject. Customizable, yes... usable, yes... ideal - not so much.

[Patriot_1776]

@Remy:

I'm on WF5/creo.

Question: Why should I have to spend valuable hours to learn how to customize, and then customize the software I paid for because of a very poor design? I never had to do this before in any of the versions I've used since v15? When a company pays this much for software and maintenance, we expect it to be right the first time.

But, we're losing so much time here in dwg mode, I may well have to do it. How about PTC making some good video tutorials on how to do this? In dwg mode, the ribbon is a HUGE timewaster, and extremely maddening. And, we're stuck on that version for a while, so the "upgrade your software to XXX doesn't fly in our case.

Thanks.

F

[Edwardwp]

Another thing that does not work properly is the pattern command.

This morning I grouped two features and patterned the group, the first feature patterened correctly, but the second feature didn't pattern. I ungrouped them and patterned them individually without any issues. By the way the second feature was a simple hole constrained in one direction to a plane and dimensioned from one end of the block.

Come on PTC this is basic stuff!

[TomD.inPDX]

What version are you running, Edward? Verion Creo 2.0 M090 was suppose to have fixed a serious patterning bug. I have not confirmed this yet.

[Edwardwp]

I am running M010.

M090 is not available on physical media yet!

We are all paying enough for maintenance for PTC to send out a CD of the latest bug fix.

[TomD.inPDX]

You had me worried there, Edward... but yes, the disks I have here are Creo 2.0 M090. I checked.

[ptc-5169382]

FULLY AGREE, You give a good summary of the bad performance of PTC since the marketing invention 'CREO'

This is my slogan:

CREO is cruely bad because the Ribbon UI is Rubbish.

I am convinced that PTC has to offer, urgently, at least one alternative in the style of Wildfire 4 (NO Ribbon)

[Constantin]

'I am convinced that PTC has to offer, urgently, at least one alternative in the style of Wildfire 4 (NO Ribbon)

...not going to happen...

[ptc-5169382]

We should not give up too early. If we stop paying maintenance, I hope, something will happen.

[Patriot_1776]

.....they're going to march right off the cliff with all the other "ribbon" lemmings.....

Why can't we get a good 3rd party to redo the GUI as software that's an add-on to PTC? Hell, If I knew how, I'd simply try and re-write the GUI code.

Now, all that said, why not make the ribbon "smart"? In other words, you pick something on the screen, and the menus switch to ALL possible things you could do with or to that object. This would also apply to the RMB pop-ups. Also, make the option for WORDS, not the stupid icons, for ALL functions in the ribbon. If certain other languages (other than English) have to pay a little more for add-ons to populate the menu picks, so be it. Also, make the menu more compact. THEN, I could get into ribbons. One of the great things about the old menu manager, which IMO was the best, least intrusive (on screen area) GUI, was that it was very minimalist, and took up little valuable screen area until the pop-ups were used. Excellent. Now.......blech....

[James62]

Rather than trying to redo the GUI, I recommend trying to learn Autohotkey.

I've been able to overcome the Creo GUI with it, and I should be able to overcome any GUI that might show up in the future as well.

For instance AHK can disable the dreaded Esc key.

Anyway I have to agree, after having to use WF4 for 3 months I have to say PTC's made a huge mistake by wipping the old menu system, and pushing Ribbon UI onto the users.

Having to be in correct tab to be able to make just a selection is pretty much laughable.

Just think of the guts of the poor Creo Parametric software salesman.... what they have to go through.......blech...

[Kenny-B]

I find it interesting, that since Microsoft came out with "The Ribbon" others have felt the need to follow. I have lambasted the Ribbon in all Office products, was very glad that Autodesk had the presence to at least be able, with a simple icon pick, revert to the old interface.

I'm not on Creo..yet, but the writing is on the wall. I will absolutely despise the interface if it is the incredibly useless "Ribbon". The developers seem to lose track of the fact that it is space on the monitor that is taken up with no return. That space is the most important thing to somebody stareing at it every day to make a living.

PTC won't listen. They never do. It took them how long to get their blasted numbers right in the "Hole Wizard"? They don't listen, nor do they care...they will continue to change the interface without changing the value of the product just so they can remarket. Remember, it is salesman running their business, not engineers, and the engineers involved are Software Engineers, not mechanical.....

[JonathanHodgson]

Kenny Bowman wrote:

I find it interesting, that since Microsoft came out with "The Ribbon" others have felt the need to follow. I have lambasted the Ribbon in all Office products, was very glad that Autodesk had the presence to at least be able, with a simple icon pick, revert to the old interface.

I was given to understand that it's now a requirement of the "Designed for Microsoft Windows X" certification that new software should have a ribbon interface - I may be wrong on that. If so, it's really Microsoft's fault.

I'm not convinced by the ribbon in Microsoft products, either. Even in Excel it just seems to add one or two more clicks or keystrokes to any operation.

[dschenken]

Can we get Clippy back?

Hi, It looks like you are designing a bracket. Can I help you design that bracket?

Would you like help making a sweep?

Is that a paper clip crushing machine? I don't think you should make a paperclip crushing mach aaaaaahhhhh.

[Patriot_1776]

If it interferes with what we need to do in our CAD (not spreadsheet) application (it VERY much does), why would anyone want to waste time and effort on that "certification"? Total rubbish. PTC has forgotten who pays the bill here.

[dgallup]

Who selects a CAD product based on a Designed for Microsoft Windows certification? As the purveyor of some of the worst software ever made, it's hardly a ringing endorsement.

The ribbon interface is one of the worst ideas MS every forced on the public after "Bob" and "Clippy". Does it expose me to more stuff I don't need? Yes it does. Does it make it harder to use the stuff I do need? Yes it does. Does it contibute to high blood pressure and carpel tunnel syndrome? Yes it does. Does it waste huge swaths of valuable screen realestate? Yes it does.

I have no doubt that in another couple of releases the ribbon interface will join may other MS software ideas on the technology junk heap. I hope it's sooner rather than later.

I find most of the core functionality of Pro/E very good & robust but they are lost in the wilderness when it comes to logical, consistent user interfaces. Trying to pick chains and surface sets is just madness. I refer to it as doing the mouse click shuffle.

PTC's treatment of long term users is also absimal. New functionality that is bundled into new license packs is not included in old license packs even though you paid more both at purchase time and in maintenance over the years. Instead, PTC want you to pay some more to upgrade those old licenses AND pay maintence as a percentage of the original license cost plus the upgrade cost. The way they have it structured, it's actually cheaper to never pay maintenance and just buy all new licenses every 4 years or so, So what if you miss some bad upgrades along the way.

[Patriot_1776]

Excellent post! PTC, are you listening????

[ptc-5169382]

Dear David,

200% agree with Your correct and clear vision.

Fortunately, we did NOT do the mistake to upgrade to a Creo release and we stay on Pro/ENGINEER Wildfire 4.0

We do even not upgrade to Wildfire 5 because of the Ribbon fiasco for Drawings.

Our slogan is : CREO IS CRUELY BAD BECAUSE THE RIBBON USER INTERFACE IS RUBBISH.

[Patriot_1776]

I would have stayed on WF4 and Intralink if I'd had the choice.

HOPEFULLY the later creo versions are better.......(hopefully)....

[DeanLong]

After reading all these posts tonight I have to say the "frustration" expressed by everyone is very real and very familar. I am in no way trying to mitgate the validity of the issues. Take my ideas as opinion. I have been an active Pro user since the late eighties and it has ALWAYS been the case, year after year, release after release, bug after bug, hit after hit, and miss after miss, these frustrations have existed with Pro.

In a nut shell, PTC listens but only when it's within their best interest. I like the idea of buying stock to vote out the special interest. However, remember PTC is a 30 year old company with preferred voting stock nowhere near us regular folks buying ability. That train has left the building. Sadly, my opinion is all your frustration is most likely falling on, not necessarily deaf, but indifferent ears. Hope is not lost though.

Having my PTC dance card for 26 years now, I believe it puts me in a postion to offer the following suggestions:

1. If you are able to have a Champion, a few Champions, a team of Champions in your respective organizations that are the Go-To people when people have questions...Do it. You will be better off for it. Pave the way for them to get trained to be Super-Users. Train as many as you can...as often as you can. Always be a learning organization. Do not rely on PTC or the Help line to give you the answers. 1989 was the last time I called 1-800-4PRO-HEL. In fact, I am not sure that is still the number.

2. Have regular internal User Group meetings. Be informed, be open, share your challenges and better yet, do not withhold your stellar techniques from your team or company. You will not gain any special recognition for being stingy or exclusive. Get really good at being good and staying as good as you can be on your particular release with your particular product/processes. Find five or six ways to get to an answer.

3. Humbly I offer this....re-direct the time your are expending attempting to get PTC to listen to the gripes getting great at navigating the obvious landmines within the software. I know it sucks that the code has always been half baked and rife with counter-productive boondoggles. It's always been like this....and unfortunately it always will be so. Learn the work-arounds, don't cheat, don't hack your way through if you can avoid it. I can safely say in my 30 plus year career, on a dozen or so CAD programs, I have rarely found there was no solution to a problem. Granted, we deal with GUI stupidity, ribbons, retina burning white backgrounds, copy cat functionality and other CAD hype...stick with it as no software is perfect.

4. Engage an outside Trainer or Super User once a year to give you a critique. They will have the fresh un-biased eyes that will see things you may have missed. At the very least they will ask questions that will challenge your processes and methods in the same way ISO auditors do.

Hope I didn't Flame On too much.

[bbarker]

Amen Pastor Long! I too have applied the same philosophy when dealing with the "sin of software".

My favorite line is from your 3rd chapter - "retina burning white backgrounds" - what was PTC thinking?

It sounds like we started our pro-e careers around the same time and have worked through the same frustrations.

Bob

[Patriot_1776]

Great post Dean!

[JohnMcCormick]

Dean, I seldom comment in this "PTC Community" but I fully support what you have said. I am only 2 years behind you in PTC experience (rev 6, I think and 24 years) and I mostly manage now rather than drive. I have found the thing that can be most destructive to users - new or experienced - being bombarded with negative comments about the software being used. Nothing will discourage users from finding answers or learning something new more than the constant threat of bringing on a new CAD package. On the other hand, nothing boosts the enthusiasm like finding a solution to a problem. So at the very least (anticipating the comments), we have the opportunity to create a lot of enthusiasm...

The last company I worked for had all the things you talked about and we did some amazing things with ProE. Sure, there were a lot of stumbling points but we worked around them for the most part. We even got some issues resolved by opening calls with PTC.

Anyway, thanks for your response. This is an interesting thread.

[rohit_rajan]

Creo has become a confusing software.

previously we knew exactly what a command would do, its not the same story now!

Ribbon..hmmm..can't say much....i hope they don't change the ribbon to something else by the time we get used to it .

hope Creo 3.0 brings some relief from bugs!

Pro/E used to be good and different..but now Creo ..huh!

oh PTC suddenly stopped our maintenace for the new license we bought only after 3 months, there is a new rule they say (PTC never cared to inform us when we were buying the license) we should have 51% license under maintenence..for maintenece to work..........so no Creo 3.0 for us...

[Johny]

When I kicked of this discussion in 2012, I had no idea that the PTC community also felt let tdown with the advent of CREO.

CREO 3 is now out in BETA, I haven't seen it because we dropped our maintenance back in 2012 also, so have saved a packet in maintenance payments over the last couple of years.

We have discussed wether to re-instate our maintenance with PTC but all our customers have stuck with wildfire 3, 4 & 5. Not one has moved to CREO, saya a lot that does.

We have no need or desire to move to CREO 3, its probably just a bug fix of CREO 2 anyway. Unless, of course, PTC have the balls to send me a copy with a temp license so that I can give them an honest and frank review. But we are talking about PTC here, where nothing is for free! So, come on PTC, put your money where yout mouth is.

As an aside, I would like to thank the PTC community for its support over this post. Your comments have been interesting and amusing. It has also amazed me that some people like the CREO interface. So thanks guys, I will keep you posted.