I don't know Robert... I we're very limited by the ribbon. I don't see how we're any better (or worse) than MS Office. Mapkeys? Mapkeys surely aren't the answer... you can make macros in MS Office, too.
I don't see how you can make the case that by restricting the users and forcing them into one interface over another that you're somehow making things better. Unless you can back up that claim with quantifiable proof, I call "BS". And I can tell you, claiming the ribbon is somehow better is just that, Bravo Sierra (BS). It is more modern... that's about it.
I find it easier to use the ribbon. Only the options are exposed that I need at that time. I am not spending as much time searching for icons or commands. Adding more options to the right mouse click is helpful too. Think about the history of the phone number everyone hated them in the late 1800's but eventually we all adopted. Personally I have found PTC's enhancements are right on at least 95% of the time. Our overall training cost will be lower, same thing happened when Microsoft consolidated their software suite , Excel, Powerpoint, Access and Outlook. Revolutionized the business world as we know it today. Don't care who you are, you can' deny it.
Consolidation of the software suite is a much different move than changing the design interface. PTC is consolidating its products as much as possible... and that's a good thing. I just do not see the same performance gains from the ribbon that you do.
I think PTC's interface changes are spot on many times. Yet there have been annoying hiccups and trouble spots with the Wildfire interface since it's inception. These were never addressed. At times it feels like the people who designed the software don't actually use it. I could give examples but this thread has truly jumped the shark.
We shall have to agree to disagree. Hopefully the newer versions of Creo still in development will continue to refine the interface (not change it wholesale but refine it) while providing more options for customization.
I have to agree with the general idea that expressing likes and dislikes about the software is a very good thing. This is a good portion of what the Technical Committees are all about. I can say that I know PTC has been beaten up many times for problems from Wildfire that still have not been fixed. It's fun to watch the PTC PM's roll their eyes every time you mention how there's still an old menu manager in some nook or cranny. Then there are times that it really seems that marketing is driving changes for their own reasons (addressing competitor funcitonality?).
In regards to the Americans with Disabilities Act, I do believe that has greatly impacted a lot in the area of icons and colors. I'm definitely not a fan of many of the icon changes just to make things look "pretty". If the argument is that it's a calculated decision to make it easier for people with color blindness to discern between icons, then I can't really argue.
As for screen real estate, I completely agree! Creo 1 definitely had some shortfalls in that area. I haven't played with Creo 2 enough to determine if it's much better, but I will soon. Unlike Brian, I usually try to avoid mapkeys and customizations. It makes it really difficult for me to switch machines or help other users when I'm used
Finally, in regards to the younger generation and Creo, I have plenty experience with them diving in and driving like pros in no time.
Having too many mapkeys and customizations does make it very tough to do support work. You arrive to help a user and he doesn't have any of your customizations... so you have to use the interface for what it is. While I have mapkeys and customizations, I also have a "default" setup, too so I can switch quickly and help people with an OOTB (out of the box) configuration.
And the younger generation... they seem pick up the software very easily. But that's always the case. One day we'll have to call them to operate simple things like the TV remote- just like my mom does now!
I guess my biggest problem with the Creo UI is not just the ribbon. It is the idea that the prompt interface is all over the screen. This is the usability that the ribbon has obscured.
-If- I were king, I would dedicate the user input UI below the ribbon... not by taking up more space, but by some "smart ribboning" where the ribbon would reduce to "one line" leaving access to still-open choices, but opening up the tabs below the ribbon. Likewise, make the edict that -ALL- data collection be moved to this same space. Not only do you have mouse clicks, but you have to consider mouse moves. The one that gets me every time is the old selection query when you activate the appearance manager. I -never- see that menu pop up in the upper right corner.
I suspect it is much more than the ribbon that we are "not liking"... it is the poor implementation of -completeness-... one of those subjective "fit and finish" perceptions. At least when M$ did this, it was unified... not so for Creo. It has a very "cheaped out" development feel to it. Almost like a study group implementation half way onto development.
That's right. Who decides what particular command should be under each tab by default in the first place?
This question should have been asked before making the default ribbon layout and with a little of thought then there would be no ribbon at all cause it does really make little to no sense especially for a power user that is in it for a while.
I always wonder what is going wrong there. Because on almost every PTC webminar I've watched so far in the last 7 months the presenter talks about this ribbon thing. It's the same old story over and over again. From the first time I heard it I ask myself what's it's impact on the tools of the software? How the positioning of the icons really matter while you can get used to anything? Even 200 of 3 to 4 letter mapkeys...
And my answer is still the same. They want to waste some time on the webminars with this nonsense. I see nothing really on the ribbon UI. If they wanna talk about ribbon they should do that in ribbon webminar.
It made me laugh when I've just read all posts in this thread alltogether again and then read the summary in this blog post: http://communities.ptc.com/blogs/ptcexpress/2012/07/30/understanding-the-creo-20-ribbon-interface
Ok, now on the serious note. It's kind of backstabbing from PTC to just take out an environment (GUI) that has been vital to seasoned users in terms of productivity and try to force these people to move to a new GUI that the devs or whoever in charge there thinks is more productive.
Well the new GUI maybe is more productive but who is to say that? The poor dev? So anyway the new GUI should come out while keeping the ability to switch to old GUI with the so called "disable_ribbon_ui yes" config.pro option so a seasoned user can work in this new version of the software while maintaining their productivity. And in the meantime moving onto that new breakthrough technology called ribbon UI.
You know there are still some clones of AutoCAD 2000 maybe cause the new AutoCAD has the ribbon. Even tho it already has it for like 5 years but for some of us its still new since we didn't bother to switch but nevermind.
The problem does not lie exactly in the ribbon in particular. The big deal of this is when someone has so much experience with the software and is so good at using it and manages to do certain tasks in plenty of ways such that this person does never bother thinking about how to really use the CAD tool anymore (or any other tool) but only has to think about what things to get done, about what is the outcome in particular.
You can hardly get to this point in one year with such complex tool even if you use it 8 hours a day.
Thats when it really becomes backstabbing if you have to adapt to such change and I am also surprised why there is so little complaining about that.
Why theres so few people who know how to use the software willing to put it right into PTC's face? That PTC has too few mavens in high places and comes up with stupid decisions. Why is that? Is the tool too complex already that you can't come up with updates to please everyone?
With my tiny experience in design using CAD tools I might not know what I am talking about but I sense there it would be better for me to learn how to master couple of other CAD tools in case Creo changes drastically again. Which I think is going to happen as PTC doesn't seem to have any strategy from now on. At least that's how it seems to me at the moment.
"If you don't like the ribbon technology then you are going to hate Microsoft and all the other applications taking the same path."
Well, hate is a strong word...
However, whilst I'm trying not to be a Luddite, I can't help feeling that the change to Ribbon in Excel (the Office app I use the most) has mostly added one or two extra clicks to every menu pick; and whilst it's supposed to display all the stuff you want for a particular task, I keep finding that actually the thing I want is hidden under a tiny drop-down arrow.
I know it's happening and we just have to roll with it, but it seems backwards to make all the click sequences (or Alt+key sequences) longer. Accessibility for newbies is all well and good, but it shouldn't be at the expense of efficiency for users who are prepared to really learn the software.
I have been working with CAD since the late 80's. I have seen VERY FEW software changes which added more value than they took away. Most are 1% valuable change and 99% "change for its own sake". The ribbon, which now appears in SolidWorks and Inventor (haven't seen SolidEdge for a while) is a shining example. It works no better than the old interface, but forces the user to change all modus operandi. If you're a user like me, who operates on "autopilot" for most command selection, it's a waste of literally weeks of time... for no gain. LEAVE THE INTERFACE ALONE!!! As that may not be clear enough for the marketers who seem to run all four of the leading CAD companies, let me be more specific: LEAVE THE @#$%^& INTERFACE ALONE!!!!