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Fun question for a Thursday

campbell
5-Regular Member

Fun question for a Thursday

Hi Dean -

Skeleton models were first introduced in Rev 18.

They were introduced to formally support top-down design methods, by
providing a place - outside your design parts - to capture, control
and propagate design criteria.

I wrote the design specs, so this isn't so much opinion as it us fact.

So, did you win your bet?

~ Mike


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12 REPLIES 12

Okay...two questions

1. Around what rev did skeleton modelscome onto the scene and....

2. What, in your opinion, was the overriding reason, or issue,skeleton model methodology was supposed to accomplish.

I have a bet riding on this...so get it right! (I.E. my thoughts!) 🐵

How much or what was the bet for???



Doug


Okay you guys are too fast!!! I've had 7 resposes in the first 3 minutes....nice to see the Pro/E band is back together.

So, I forgot to ask the third question.

3. Should Skeletons be used, day one, for the "what if" scenarios on a projectwhere the A-Surfaces, assembly structure and fastening methods are NOT yet determined or is it better to wait and start battaning things down once the goodies and real surfaces start appearing?

To those who have asked...yes indeed I have won 2/3 of the bet. C'mon Trifecta!!!!

In Reply to Dean Long:

Okay...two questions

1. Around what rev did skeleton modelscome onto the scene and....

2. What, in your opinion, was the overriding reason, or issue,skeleton model methodology was supposed to accomplish.

I have a bet riding on this...so get it right! (I.E. my thoughts!) 🐵

As a PTC consultant, I started implementing Top Down Design skeleton models
in Pro/E at a big yellow construction vehicle manufacturing company (I
wonder who that might be!) in 1993 and DID actually call them "skeleton
models" back then, though at that point they were not a categorized within
the Pro/E environment as a special model file type. They were plain old part
files mainly consisting of the same type of "datum type" geometry that you
may use in a skeleton today, but just assembled as the first part in an
assembly. At that same time I introduced these techniques to "this" company,
I introduced the concept of "space claim models", using simplified piece
parts to represent more complex parts and/or subassemblies. These concepts
and methodologies were passed along back then to PTC corporate, even though
such concepts were not truly integrated as specific pieces of functionality
until much later as stated in rev 18.



In 1993, the skeleton modeling methodologies I developed were meant to
provide for the development of upper level critical constraints for an
entire product and/or subassembly. Even at that time, many of these
constraints (at least at the yellow company) were being controlled by a
layout, which was back then called Pro/NOTEBOOK. This was not necessary, but
was the approach we used to control some of the main constraints. This
provided for a single location to refer to regarding making and controlling
high level critical product changes. As mentioned, these skeletons were
manually assembled as the first part in an assembly, and individual parts
and/or sub-assemblies were then assembled directly to the skeleton geometry
in the skeleton part. This either minimized and/or completely eliminated the
direct assembling of components to each other, thereby allowing earlier
components to be deleted, updated, or replaced (substituted manually or
using functional interchange assemblies) without affecting the placement of
components assembled later on in any fashion. Sound familiar?



The updates to the PTC toolset since then obviously allow for much more
power and flexibility in implementing this functionality versus the
approaches that were required back then. I still provide custom Pro/E top
down design, large assembly management, and complex modeling solutions using
the latest TDD and LAM enhancements, only this has been through my own
company for the past 14 years.



The archaic hoops we had to jump through to accomplish certain things in
Pro/E back then bring back many memories. I'm guessing others out there can
predate the skeleton modeling techniques I put together. Maybe they will
chime in.



Best Regards,



Scott W. Schultz

Principal Consultant

3D Relief Inc.

3700 Willow Creek Drive

Suite 200

Raleigh, NC 27604

(919)259-0610

-





_____
TimMcLellan
6-Contributor
(To:campbell)

Mike Campbell said it perfectly, " They (skeleton models) were introduced to
formally support top-down design methods...".



The formal support Mike mentioned provided for a much improved work flow.
It established a cleaner structure for using TDD. It really helped to
build better relationships and control. Today this coupled with other
advancements from PTC (inheritance, external copy geom., publish geom., ref.
viewer, etc.) allow users to engineer some very robust systems/products.
However, the criticality of your targets/goals/intent cannot be understated.
So if you're thinking about TDD or utilizing other external references think
it through. You will NOT regret it. It's no different than building a
house. You need to start with a good foundation.



Cheers,



P.S.

Chiming in with some more history behind "Skeltons" - Thanks Scott

As a Senior Application Engineer for PTC in the Detroit area our office
supported many automotive objectives. While, pre-dating Scott by a couple
of years, I had put together a robust TDD assembly for a SLA Suspension when
leading automotive service companies said it could not be done. The
"skeleton" at the time was a part as mentioned. This part drove all of the
hard points for the suspension and its components. Critical design
positions (jounce, rebound, LT, RT) could be established through the complex
geometric and parametric relationships within the skeleton. My concept
for the suspension originated from an internal PTC product demo developed by
Brad Braufman (a brilliant and creative PTC AE) called the helicopter demo.
The helicopter demo illustrated how Pro/E could be used to outline top level
structure, drive individual parts, and engineer for 2D motion. My
suspension took it to the next level moving this concept to a full 3D
skeleton. I issued a full report internally at PTC that discussed the value
and advancements beyond the helicopter demo. By the way the automotive OEM
I worked with was astonished. Hopefully that provides even more of the
history & development.





Tim McLellan
Mobius Innovation and Development, Inc.
rreifsnyder
13-Aquamarine
(To:campbell)

In the mid 90's I did some work with Xerox. PTC was in there trying to sell them on switching to Pro/E and the AE's then sent set us up with what they called at the time "map parts". They defined roller location and sizes baffles for directing the paper path, etc. I was the top level integrator for a time and it was very cool for keeping teams within their spaces.

Rob Reifsnyder
Mechanical Design Engineer/ Pro/E Librarian
L
Mission Systems & Sensors (MS2)
497 Electronics Parkway
Liverpool, NY 13088
EP5-Quad2, Cube 281

Sorry to chime in late, but I get every other Friday off so didn't see this thread until now. Yea eat your hearts out on my every other three day weekend. Anyway, enough of my work bliss.

My early on Pro/E skeleton model (version 9) served a little different purpose, in that it provided assembly points that mimicked the functioning assembly model that was not available then, now called mechanism constraints. I had a part file as my first component in an assembly that simply had datum plains, axis and points in it. It could have interlocking/overlapping datums with driving features like offsets, angles, and parallel/perpendicular constraints. I would then assemble components to those references and them be able to drive my assembly thru motions by changing those dimensions. Ideally even create family table instances to quickly step thru the range of motions with set values. In other words mechanism constraint limits. I presented this approach at Pro/USER conferences, and PTC developers were very interested. Funny I never got a royalty check, or credit when mechanism constraints was developed.

So Scott, you need any more consultants at 3D Relief? Seems like NASA next generation human space vehicle Orion might be on hold for a time.

Tim P. Cooper
LMES, Houston
ITL Facility and Mockups Design
LM1 / Rm. 707

Physical Address: Correspondence:
2625 Bay Area Blvd LM1, Mail Code: A7A
Houston, TX 77058 P.O. Box 58487
(281) 283-4372 Houston, TX 77258-8784
(281) 283-4199 (F)

"Sarcasm alert"

Wow Tim, there seems to be a lot of people inventing TDD! I haven't seen
the like since Al Gore invented the internet! Of course, none of this
would have been possible until I had first invented the alphabet and
calculus.

Have a great day,
Richard

Richard,
Yep seen you around the exploder a LONG time. Always value your inputs. Thanks for the smile on a Monday morning.


Tim P. Cooper
LMES, Houston
ITL Facility and Mockups Design
LM1 / Rm. 707

Physical Address: Correspondence:
2625 Bay Area Blvd LM1, Mail Code: A7A
Houston, TX 77058 P.O. Box 58487
(281) 283-4372 Houston, TX 77258-8784
(281) 283-4199 (F)

back in my day...

I started using pro/e at version 10. We had on site help from ptc. One of the guys showed us how to use a skeleton part to move or manipulate geometry (parts in an assembly). Our skeletons started out as "stick figures" linkage layouts that parts were assembled to so that by modifying the skeleton dimensions, parts would move in the assemlby. This ofcourse was long before cell phones and the internet... you kids today - you don't know how easy you have it....

thanks everyone...nice trip down memory lane.

And did I ever tell you the time I invented Velcro?

Hey, Dean.

If you ARE the one that invented Velcro, you've been dead since 1990.

Posting from beyond the grave, are we?

Bwahahaha!



In Reply to Dean Long:

thanks everyone...nice trip down memory lane.

And did I ever tell you the time I invented Velcro?

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