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WF5 Detailing UI

jasonb13
1-Newbie

WF5 Detailing UI

We adopted WF5 last week and I have had nothing but complaints from the user community regarding the increased amount of clicks to complete tasks. They have also found multiple problems using the show annotations tool. Does anyoneone have similar experiences or found ways to reduce the number of clicks in WF5 detailing.

55 REPLIES 55

Jason

When you post a question of this nature it is important to include all the infomation ?

what problems are they having ? a little more detail, for example users have experienced ..... details

What is the datecode of WF5

what graphics card do you have

and some basic computer information is generally helpfull

Dave McClinton

Mckesson Automation

david.mcclinton@mckesson.com

We areon WF5 M030. I am usure how the graphics card comes into play.

The question is regarding the actual workflow of the software with the ribbon interface. The number of clicks to complete everyday tasks as increased due to the new UI.

With regards to showing model annotations, there are plenty of problems that are due to the functionality;

  1. You can't show dimenions by feature that have been erased. This includes dimensions that are showing up as being erased pre-WF5
  2. Regarding show by view; you can't see what you are doing with all the dimensions that are shown.
  3. In the Drawing tree and show and erase dialog box...nobody knows the proe designtaion ie. d123...it would be more useful to put in the actual value.

These are just a few examples; I was just trying to get a feel for how the rest of the community was doing with the ribbon UI.

Yes we are experiencing the same issues with the new drawing UI. Build M30 did help resolve some issues we had with Shown dimensions that were erased and did not show up as grayed out in the drawing tree and thus could not be shown again. We are a small group, but ALL of us do not like the new Drafting/Detailing interface. I have been using it for a month now and am still not used to it and find my self clicking on things that can't be done until changing to the other tabs/modes. I am very concerned WF6 might make the same changes in the modeling UI which would be devastating if done the same way. There are so many great new enhancements in WF5, but this is a big step in the wrong direction.

Sincerely,
Mark A. Peterson
Sr Design Engineer
Igloo Products Corp
-



A few items that were brought up (not only in this message):

In order to click on items that are "out of order" with the current TAB, use the ALT key.

The "d123" that shows in the model tree is the same parameter name assigned to the dimension in particular or the annotation in general. Change it and it will change in the model tree.

Erased dimensions are still available in the model tree. Just RMB, UNERASE.



On 05.04.



In Reply to Rui Vaz:

Rui,

You have some good points and we have learned these options.

We have found the following faults after investigating your comments:

Even if you select something that is not "in order" with the current tab using the Alt Key, you can't do anything with it until you switch tabs.

Usually only critical items are renamed...to rename every dimension is unrealistic.

Ihave found theerased dimensions are in the model tree. To find the correct dimension, you have to know what view the dimension happens to be assigned to and then you have to find the dimension which could take anywhere from 2 minutes to 20 minutes depending on the complexity of the model.

A few items that were brought up (not only in this message):

In order to click on items that are "out of order" with the current TAB, use the ALT key.

The "d123" that shows in the model tree is the same parameter name assigned to the dimension in particular or the annotation in general. Change it and it will change in the model tree.

Erased dimensions are still available in the model tree. Just RMB, UNERASE.



On 05.04.

All,

I'm one of the people who's been hectoring Jason with complaints since we switched to WF5, so I figured I ought to provide some of my feedback to the general public here.

First, let me say that I think the changes PTC's made to the modeling side of Pro/E are great - the Dynamic Edit, the on-the-fly Appearance Editor, and especially the improved Failure Diagnostics module are terrific. Really, I don't have any complaints with the new functionality or the other, more minor enhancements to the modeling side of things.

But, my stars, the drawing module certainly got screwed up. This is a direct result of the switch to the so-called Ribbon interface. It starts with the big swath of screen space eaten up by the ribbon and its icons. Now, the actual space you have to do drawing work is reduced by the model/drawing trees, the dashboard, and the ribbon. Sure, you can hide it - that's the very first thing I do upon opening a drawing - but that brings up the next issue.

You now have to be on the correct ribbon tab to do tasks. This was clearly a decision made by somebody who has never worked on a drawing before, ever. In the normal process of building a drawing, I'll find myself adding some dimensions, then maybe adding another view, then moving the dimensions from one view to another, then maybe adding a symbol, etc. etc. I shift from one type of task to another quickly and frequently. But now I need to remember to go up and select the proper tab in between tasks. Where is the value added here? What does this do for me? It seems obvious to me that this software direction was mandated by marketing, because I don't see how it adds any value to the end user.

Furthermore, showing/erasing/deleting dimensions has been given a new layer of hassle, with more mouse clicks and movement. My usual way of building a drawing involved opening up the model tree, right-clicking on a feature, and showing the dimensions, one feature at a time. I'd go ahead and show them, then position them on the view(s) as necessary, adjust tolerances, add GTOL frames, etc., then move to the next feature. Well, now, you can't just "show" the dimensions - you have to navigate a dialog box that, naturally, opens on the far side of the screen. I'm sure somebody out there has done or will do a comparison of the total mouse travel distance needed to make a drawing between WF4 and WF5, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's doubled with this new release.

I'll give it this - the drawing tree can be handy. But the dimensions are listed as strings of numbers that make no logical sense. Can we at least have the ability to switch them to dimension values? Or show by feature, rather than by drawing view?

I could go on, but you get the point. I love the new modeling enhancements, but the drawing mode is a disaster. And the news that WF6 is going to be incorporating this idiotic ribbon in the modeling side, too? Can we roll back to WF4 instead? Change for the sake of change isn't a good thing, unless actual problems are getting resolved in the process. To me, I can't say what problems are being addressed with the new interface.

Tim

Hopefully end-users will wait as long as they can to move to Wildfire 5.0. I
am so sick of learning new interfaces that don't fix problems, just slow
down my productivity. I hated it when MS Office adopted the ribbon and I'm
sure I'll hate the half-ass effort Pro-E will give it.



Mike Johnson

Senior CAD Designer

Carlisle Industrial Brake & Friction

-

812-334-8797


To Jason

you may be exaggerating on purpose, but to say you can't do "anything" with something until the correct tab is selected is inaccurate. In the Layout tab, you can reposition dimensions, edit a value, etc. In the Annotate tab, you can select views and reposition those. Maybe I'm privileged that normally I place (most) views, then dimension and hardly ever need to go back and forth. I confess that I don't do many 2D's, and will iterate that I can understand all your (and others') points. Was just pointing out some things that maybe not everyone knew about.

As for dimension names, renaming was an example, but someone (sorry don't remember who) mentioned them as if he/she didn't know where those numbers came from.

Rui


On 06.04.

I too do not like the ribbon for the same reasons already mentioned.
Does it have any advantage over prior releases?
Does anyone like it?

Gerry

The biggest problem with the ribbon interface is that it goes back to
the 'Action-object' method, one thing I thought we were getting away
from.



BTW, you can still right-click on a drawing object and select 'Show
Annotation', or select the dimension and select 'Properties', so I don't
think the condition is dire.



I would rather hide or minimize the ribbon interface and count on the
right-click options for my workflow.



On balance, this ribbon interface is no better or worse than other MS
products, or another CAD system (which shall remain nameless), with the
exception that left-clicking on an item on the drawing view
automatically brings up the objects parameters on a panel on the left
side of the view, replacing the model tree.



On the plus side, at least NC is not a ribbon yet, just a series of
mostly confusing icons for the NC sequence types (thank goodness for
tooltips!)



BTW, as far as I can tell, the machinability database STILL doesn't work
to enter speed and feed parameters for cutting conditions. (but I am
still tinkering)





Christopher Gosnell

TRIGON INC.
FPD Company
124 Hidden Valley Road
McMurray, PA 15317



In Reply to Rui Vaz:

Rui,

Thank you for pointing out that you can edit dimension values while not in the annotate tab.I was not aware of this possibility...are there any other things that you know of that can be done when "out of tab"?

Jason

To Jason

you may be exaggerating on purpose, but to say you can't do "anything" with something until the correct tab is selected is inaccurate. In the Layout tab, you can reposition dimensions, edit a value, etc. In the Annotate tab, you can select views and reposition those. Maybe I'm privileged that normally I place (most) views, then dimension and hardly ever need to go back and forth. I confess that I don't do many 2D's, and will iterate that I can understand all your (and others') points. Was just pointing out some things that maybe not everyone knew about.

As for dimension names, renaming was an example, but someone (sorry don't remember who) mentioned them as if he/she didn't know where those numbers came from.

Rui


On 06.04.

Chris - you can use the right click as you say, but the appropriate menu options only appear when you're...you guessed it, in the right tab. If you're in "annotate," the "layout" options don't appear, etc.

I don't think it's so much problem with the fluent user ribbon approach
as maybe it is with a half bake implementation of its use. When I first
started to use MS Office 2007 my first thought "was what the" why did
they do that. Now I actually like it.



I've only spent a couple of hours playing with WF5 detailing so it may
just be me missing a thing or two but, I did not get a mini tool bar
when selecting something. I would think that if I select a dimension
regardless of what tab is selected that a mini properties tool bar
should pop up ( like in MS Office) and disappear when the dimension is
deselected.



Also did not see a way to add any commonly used commands to a quick
access tool bay. In MS Office I can add any command where it is already
in the ribbon or not to the quick access tool bar so that they are
always available. In pro/E I could not. The home tab is supposed to
have the most used commands, depending on the user it could be argued as
to what are the most used commands.



Need to spend more time on it to see if there are any contextual tool
bars and see if there are any gallery previews when hovering the mouse
over a selection. It is my understanding the reason for the ribbon is
to give the user a more visual account of where the tool is that they
are looking for rather than searching for them through menus. It was
driven by user complaints to Microsoft who had not changed the tool bars
since 1992.



Does anyone know if there is a keyboard shortcut to switch tabs?







Thank you, Jim Flores

Mech. designer/CAD admin.

Clinical Care Systems

Philips Healthcare

2271 Cosmos Court

Carlsbad, CA. 92011

-



In Reply to Jim Flores:


Need to spend more time on it to see if there are any contextual tool
bars and see if there are any gallery previews when hovering the mouse
over a selection.


Does anyone know if there is a keyboard shortcut to switch tabs?

Jim,

There is no pop-up toolbar when hovering, you can however RMB after selecting something to get a contextual menu.

I created mapkeys to switch tabs and minimize / maximize the ribbon to gain screen space. I'm not sure how much they are getting used yet.

I can understand the complaints about Office 7. After fighting it for a
couple of years, I think the ribbon interface is ultimately more
productive and puts more stuff at your fingertips, but why eliminate
existing functionality to put it there? At least let me use the same
mouse clicks and keyboard shortcuts to do what I've always done. Office
7 was a productiviity killer because of that fact. It sounds like WF 5
has the same issue.


Ken Sauter
DRS Reconnaissance Surveillance and Target Acquisition
Infrared Technologies Division
PO Box 740188
Dallas, TX 75374
214-860-6826
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Not off-hand, but still only "played" a few times.

RMB'ing is always a good place to start :)



On 06.04.

According to the WF 5.0 Quick Reference Card, while in the Ribbon
Interface you can right-mouse click to open a Customize Dialog, but I
haven't tried this yet.



As I have said before though, if you highlight an item on-screen
(especially in drawing mode) and then right-click, a menu of options
comes up, no matter what 'mode' the ribbon is in.



Christopher Gosnell

TRIGON INC.
FPD Company
124 Hidden Valley Road
McMurray, PA 15317
PH: 724.941.5540
FX: 724.941.8322
www.fpdinc.com

Thanks Chris,

I'll give the customize dialog a shot.

What version of WF5 are you running? I only had the first version
available to install (meant to go online today and order a newer one).
I when I RMB I get a very limited menu of about 4 items for a driven
dimension and 5 items for a driving dimension where the option to change
its value is added. I don't recall what all the options were but other
than "value" and "delete" they did not seem very useful. When the
correct tap is selected the RMB gives me 10 or 12 very useful options.
Just wondering if it is a problem with this particular version I am
running.



Thank you, Jim Flores

Mech. designer/CAD admin.

Clinical Care Systems

Philips Healthcare

2271 Cosmos Court

Carlsbad, CA. 92011

-

Except you can only click or select items that are associated with the tab or mode you are in so thus no chance to right click afterward. You can Alt Select but that seems limited to just moving views or notes. If I am in the Layout mode and Alt Select a note, right clicking doesn't flyout with the all annotation options like properties so you can edit the note.

For that matter if the smart selector knows what I selected than why doesn't it switch me to the proper mode?

Mark a. Peterson
Sr Design Engineer
Igloo Products Corp
-




-----End Original Message-----

I am using WF5 M020 running on a Dell P690, 2Gb RAM, Quadro 4500
Graphics, Win XP Pro.



Whether a dimension is driven or driving, when I right-click on it I get
11 options in the popup menu including properties. (which I personally
think should be the first pick, not the last pick. Erase or delete
should be the last pick)



Wow, I never noticed this before (I just started testing WF 5 Late last
week), but after showing or annotating a dimension on a drawing, the
dimension won't highlight unless the 'Annotate' tab is active.



BUT, while the Annotate tab is active I can still highlight the drawing
view and edit view parameters...





What happened to Object-Action?...







Christopher Gosnell

TRIGON INC.
FPD Company
124 Hidden Valley Road
McMurray, PA 15317
PH: 724.941.5540
FX: 724.941.8322
www.fpdinc.com
A.DelNegro
4-Participant
(To:jasonb13)

In Office 07, you can switch tabs by scrolling the mouse wheel... not
so in Pro/E... again, another half baked solution...


A.DelNegro
4-Participant
(To:jasonb13)

Chris, it's funny you mention "properties" placement on the RMB menu.
I've often wondered why "Delete" is the FIRST option. I know I've
accidentally hit that before. In the days before the undo button (which
wasn't that long ago) it could be a real pain.



The RMB menu is great, but there should be a little more thought put
into the ordering of selections. For that matter, it would be nice to
be able to customize it yourself.... Maybe in WF10 will be able to do
that.



T


Gee... I just want SOMEONE at PTC to explain to me HOW working on a Word
Document is "just like" working on a CAD drawing.... lol...

I know it's "nice" if your software is "easy" to learn and
"recognizable", but gimme a break! In the end, it's the EXISTING
customers who get screwed by PTC's desire to "lure" new customers...
Glad I'm old, and not long for any of this... ROFLMAO!!!

Opps, forgot to toggle the rant "warning lights"....

Thanks...

Paul Korenkiewicz
FEV, Inc.
4554 Glenmeade
Auburn Hills, MI., 48326

Yeah, customizing the menus is a drum I have beaten for a couple of
years now.

My employer doesn't pay me to reverse engineer the Pro-E menu system, so
I haven't looked into it, but I would love to see the menuing 'open
sourced' and have the design community edit it as we like. Maybe you
can rearrange the menus now, IF you have a Toolkit licence(?)



Especially now that PTC changed the trail files to actually store
API-type of calls vs. mouse clicks, it should be a straightforward thing
to do...



Way back in the day, ComputerVision had a very good menuing system that
translated all screen-icon picks and tablet picks to command-line
commands. I keep thinking that even now, our UI's are still doing the
same general thing...



Also, with respect to the RMB menus, I seem to remember that DELETE was
right next to some other pick I use often.



Christopher Gosnell

TRIGON INC.
FPD Company
124 Hidden Valley Road
McMurray, PA 15317
PH: 724.941.5540
FX: 724.941.8322
www.fpdinc.com

Anybody know how the Autocad community responded to their ribbon bar change?

[cid:image001.gif@01CAD64D.A9212CF0]

John Frankovich
The GSI Group LLC

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to comment a little bit regarding the Wildfire 5.0
detailing UI and this lively discussion...



First of all, I'd like to say that I appreciate the candid feedback from
everyone who has taken the time to chime in. This kind of feedback does
help us to make improvements in the software.



In general, I'd like to explain a little bit about the thought process
behind the new UI in Wildfire 5.0 and how it fits in with our future
plans for the UI across the rest of Pro/ENGINEER. The decision to change
the top-level UI in only one mode of Pro/ENGINEER in Wildfire 5.0 was
not taken lightly. As some of the users have pointed out, the Ribbon UI
is a strategic direction for Pro/ENGINEER and we are planning to provide
the Ribbon UI across all of Pro/ENGINEER in Wildfire 6.0. Due to the
level of resources required we did not have the capacity to do it
completely in Wildfire 5.0. So the choice became to do nothing at all
regarding UI change and plan to do it all later, or to implement the new
UI in one area as something of a pilot. We opted for the second choice
for a several reasons. Chief among those was the realization that a CAD
tool is very different from an Office tool and requires a different user
model. We thought that by implementing the new top-level UI in one area
in Wildfire 5.0 we could get much more valuable user feedback from real
users using the tool in production than we ever could through usability
testing while Wildfire 6.0 was in development. That said, we did a LOT
of design and usability testing during Wildfire 5.0 development. We
implemented numerous changes to the design as a result of usability
testing on site at customers and at usability labs in the PTC/User
conference. Even now many of the comments being made about the detailing
UI in Wildfire 5.0 are influencing the design of the Ribbon UI in
Wildfire 6.0. Rest assured we are listening and taking these comments to
heart. The decision to implement the Ribbon in detail mode ultimately
boils down to the fact that we felt we could ensure a better user
experience in Wildfire 6.0 if we implemented the Ribbon in a limited
area in Wildfire 5.0.



Some specific comments regarding Wildfire 5.0 and the detailing UI...

One of the biggest complaints has been the notion of needing to be in
the proper tab to get access to all of the needed commands. One of the
key precepts in the design was to provide an optimized environment for
performing a set of related tasks. The different ribbon tabs are
task-oriented. There is a tradeoff in that switching tabs involves an
extra mouse click. However, we feel that if we can make the user more
productive when performing related tasks in a particular tab it would
more than make up for the burden of switching tabs. Case in point is the
RMB menu. In Wildfire 4.0 we only had one mode, so the RMB menu needed
to be a balance of providing commands related to views, dimensions,
tables, etc... while at the same time not having an RMB menu with 20
commands in it. By making the RMB menu contents reflective of the active
tab, we are able to provide far more commands in the RMB menu than
before. The Annotate tab has more RMB commands related to annotations
than were previously available in the RMB menu in Wildfire 4.0, for
instance.



We've received several comments from users regarding what they thought
were "new " commands, but which were in fact available in Wildfire 4.0,
but hardly anyone knew about them because they were buried in the menus.
Just by moving the command to the Ribbon, more people know about that
command and can find it now.



We did implement keyboard shortcuts to switch tabs. This is activated by
pressing and releasing the ALT key. Not only can you switch tabs with
these key tips, but you can even choose commands that way.



Mapkeys have been designed to work outside the active tab as well as to
switch tabs. So, if you find that you have a command that you use often,
you can record a mapkey for it and it will run regardless of which tab
is active.



Someone mentioned customization of the ribbon. We did implement some
limited customization in Wildfire 5.0, but plan to offer much more
customization capability in Wildfire 6.0.



The ribbon can be minimized to clear up screen space - I think someone
mentioned that as well.



I could probably go on about other specifics, but I really wanted to
point out the thought process behind the UI decision and how it fits in
with a longer term strategy.



Thanks for your time and if anyone has additional comments, feel free to
email me.



Raphael





Raphael Nascimento

Product Manager

Pro/ENGINEER Detailing



www.ptc.com

On 04/ 7/10 05:00 PM, Nascimento, Raphael wrote:
>
> Some specific comments regarding Wildfire 5.0 and the detailing UI...
>
> One of the biggest complaints has been the notion of needing to be in
> the proper tab to get access to all of the needed commands. One of the
> key precepts in the design was to provide an optimized environment for
> performing a set of related tasks. The different ribbon tabs are
> task-oriented. There is a tradeoff in that switching tabs involves an
> extra mouse click. However, we feel that if we can make the user more
> productive when performing related tasks in a particular tab it would
> more than make up for the burden of switching tabs. Case in point is
> the RMB menu. In Wildfire 4.0 we only had one mode, so the RMB menu
> needed to be a balance of providing commands related to views,
> dimensions, tables, etc... while at the same time not having an RMB
> menu with 20 commands in it. By making the RMB menu contents
> reflective of the active tab, we are able to provide far more commands
> in the RMB menu than before. The Annotate tab has more RMB commands
> related to annotations than were previously available in the RMB menu
> in Wildfire 4.0, for instance.
>


I believe what would be a good compromise is when I double click on a
dimension in a different tab, it would automatically change to the
correct tab and also let me change the dimension value. It was this way
in WF4, just without tabs. Now this way all previous ways to do things
pretty much remains the same and now the new user interface is still usable.



> The ribbon can be minimized to clear up screen space -- I think
> someone mentioned that as well.
>


I've mentioned this in the past, from a different forum. But, a config
option would be very useful to have it minimized from the start, this
way you maximize user space, which should be the default.



Paul


--

Paul Gress
President
Rad Electronics Inc.
3122 Expressway Drive South
Islandia, NY 11749
(631) 243-7707
(631) 243-7708 Fax
www.rad-electronics.com

Thanks for the update Raphael,

I would be very appreciative of a config option to turn off the icon
names. Currently the limited customization allow you to reposition the
icons to ones liking, but the ones with long names take up to 2-1/2 icon
spaces. Currently not all icons have a name, I can see where a name on
each icon would be very beneficial to new uses, not so much to old
timers.



Thank you, Jim Flores

Mech. designer/CAD admin.

Clinical Care Systems

Philips Healthcare

2271 Cosmos Court

Carlsbad, CA. 92011

-

Hi Raphael,

Thanks a lot for joining this discussion. This shows how dedicated PTC
is at listening to their customers.

One of *my* biggest complaints for now is about the position of the
standard File, Edit, View menu's.
With the Ribbon UI they were moved to the top *right* side of the
screen. They were obviously moved over there to save valuable screen
space.
But that is not intuitive at all. I know of *no* other Windows
application that has these commands in an other corner than the top
*left* corner.
Also some of these commands will be only available in a flyout menu on
smaller screen resolutions:



I was also told that these standard menu's will be gone in future
releases of ProE anyway.
With that I have to disagree completely. The fact that Microsoft decided
they didn't need them anymore in Office should not be the reason to
remove them from Pro/E. The idea behind the Ribbon Interface was to
simplify the command structure to a more taks based structure where you
just simply follow the task in the tab's from left to right and then
your finished. But working with 3D and 2D CAD is way more complex than
working with Office documents.

I think that PTC should keep on concentrating on an multi driven User
Interface with

*
General menu's: File, Edit, etc (with all the commands and
additional commands provided by toolkit applications)
These should be placed in the top left corner.
*
Toolbars (with the most important commands)
*
Ribbon UI (with all the commands)
Including a lot of the optimizations suggested by the users.
Like a quick Ribbon UI close/open button.
*
Dashboards
*
Mapkeys

To underline my idea. Here a Photoshopped version of the WF5 Drawing UI
as I would prefer it with the standard menu's in the top left corner and
a quick Ribbon UI toggle button.:



Olaf Corten
CAD/PLM Manager, Besi Competence Center - Other Business Applications
Fico BV, Ratio 6, 6921 RW Duiven, The Netherlands
Tel.: +31 26 3196215
Fax: +31 26 3196200
Mobile: +31 644548554
www.fico.nl
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