WF5 ribbon

[ptc-593619]

Friday question,



After sending this question below - and receiving many constructive
replies BTW, no one has had a good word to say about WF5 ribbon
interface especially for drawings. If this is the case, why the heck do
we (the users) have to put up with the PTC spin? Loss of productivity,
hatred of something unfamiliar or am I just getting the negatives -
what's your take on this unpopular decision?



Richard A. Black

Lead Design Engineer

Eaton Corporation

440 Murray Hill Road

Southern Pines

NC 28387 USA



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[RonGrabau]

In defense of PTC, they have corrected a lot of their ribbon issues in Creo. I am a member of the PTC/USER Technical Committees and as the ribbon was introduced you can be sure that PTC heard the user base.

The ribbon is not a bad interface in my own opinion. It is a lot like the latest Microsoft office technology. I have gotten use to my Office interface and I am sure I will get use to this. It is just different and once you get use to it, it is not all that bad. I have also been reviewing the new Windchill 10.0 and actually like what they have done there too. I can hear my users screaming, but I find it easy to use. Yeah, there is some hunting around for some functions, but it is far better than the 18 menu picks to get to a function. I use to have hundreds of mapkeys and now I have about 20. It has been my experience that people find something different is difficult and will complain no matter what. I find it funny how fickle users are. We complain that the user interface is no good. PTC responds and then we complain that they changed it from the old interface. Sometimes PTC is in a no win situation. Being an old time user, I would never want to go back to the old menus. I like what they have done! Now, could it be better…. certainly! Did PTC make a mistake with the Ribbon in WF5? YES.

What PTC needs is helpful input. I believe that the ribbon is here to stay for a while so what constructive inputs does everyone have? What is really funny is that a number of years back there was a lot of anger over some new changes to assembly mode. People were screaming and demanding blood for such a change. Since I was a committee chair I wanted to know more about their issues. As a committee we had already worked a lot with PTC on the subject and were happy with the results. It turns out that a number of the biggest complainers had never used the new functionality. They are read a few things but did not really know what they were talking about. I put out a couple of videos and the complaints stopped.

I am just expressing my opinion. If you want to slam me for it, by all means. I have a delete button on my keyboard that works really well. No mapkey or toolkit programming required.

Ron Grabau
PTC user since 1991

[MikeBrattoli]

Ron,

Well stated.

I like my delete button as well – it’s like an old friend and it never complains ?. I do miss “kill -9 though”!

Mike Brattoli
PTC User since 1993 – TC member since 1996

[ptc-1932745]

The biggest problem with the ribbon interface as implemented in WF5 is the need for 'instinctive knowledge' about what should be available when a certain ribbon is active.



In drawing mode:

For example, when the 'Layout ribbon' is active and I right click on a drawing view (after hovering on the view),



I get the following choices:

next

previous

Insert General view

Insert Detailed view

Insert Auxiliary View

Sheet setup

Drawing Models

Lock view movement

update sheet



But If I am in the Annotate tab I get:

next

previous

pick from list

Show Model Annotations

Dimension - New References

Note

Geometric Tolerance

Surface Finish

Custom Symbol

snap line

cleanup dimensions

lock view movement

update sheet



Now, these picks are almost (if not) completely different from the above list if you first left click on a view before right clicking. This is all very confusing to remember, unless you have been using the software constantly (and swearing at times) for anywhere from 10-40 hours or so. And if you step away from doing drawings for a few days, you trip over this again and again. As I have said in other threads about the ribbon interface, compare this to the actions of Excel, for example:



If I am in the Home, or Insert, or Formulas tab, when I right-click a cell, I get a popup of the most applicable commands I can apply to the cell. Cell color fill does not need the Page Layout tab accessed first, and the filter or sort command does not need the Formulas tab highlighted first, etc...



PTC did not apply this logic to their ribbon menus when the ribbon came out for the drawing interface, so the comment that the ribbon is 'just like Office apps' is misleading. MS have applied the ribbon interface in Excel both more logically and with a more flexible workflow.



This 'context sensitivity' is how I recall the WF 4 right-click menus working (and working pretty well). At one time there was a lot of talk about object-action workflow, and I thought WF 4 did an OK job of this. I think the ribbon as implemented in WF5 is a step (or two) back. The workflow is going back to the older action-object method, but is both and neither at once.



And the answer is not to alt- or control- click on the object to get features that are not available on a certain tab as the solution, (I think this was the work around explained available in Creo 1?) This implies that I already know what tab needs to be active when I am looking for a particular task, or more likely, I have already right-clicked on the item in question, I have not seen the command I need, and I then alt-or control click the item again in the vain hope that the command will come up.



This causes uncertainty in the mind of the user as to how the interface is designed and how it is to be applied. Say what you want about the older-nested menus. But at least the commands were where you left them.



Unless it is thought otherwise, I am not needlessly bashing PTC in this regard. I NEED a tool that is sharp and useful as any tool in my toolbox. Every interface change since about version 2001 seems like a step sideways rather than forward. I just wonder what type of usability testing PTC has done before rolling out these changes, and how the feedback from these testers differs from those of us in the 'trenches'. Also, how do I get to be one of these usability testers?



I would love to set the ghost of Steve Jobs loose at PTC...





Christopher F. Gosnell



FPD Company

124 Hidden Valley Road

McMurray, PA 15317

PH:724.941-5540

FX:724.941.8322

www.fpdcompany.com

[hippe]

I can sum up the frustration caused with the new ribbon interface with one word: Training. (Or lack thereof) Our customers who attempted to use the new interface without training were also quite frustrated. Once they made the investment to get guidance through training, they were much happier. One comment I heard was: once you get used to the new interface and have to revisit the older interface you realize how beneficial it really is. Now, this isn't to say it is perfect. Customer feedback isindeed important, and PTC listened and reacted with Creo 1.0. Context sensitive RMB menus act upon the selection(or lack ofselection) with commonly used functions dependent on the selection/active tab, so yes, the menu will look differentif you have something selected vs.not having somethingselected even from within the same tab. The process of selection is user communication to the software that you are lookingfor features relative to the itemselected. I myself have to switch between Wildfire 4.0, Creo Elements/Pro 5.0 (Wildfire 5.0) and Creo Parametric 1.0 everyday, and I see the benefit of the new user interface each time I switch to earlier versions with the old interface.The ribbon is really not the evil interface users make it out to be...

[mpeterson]

I can believe that, but how many companies will provide training for each new
release? I think that is the issue and also wonder if the changes by PTC are in
part to sell more training and sell to new users. Medium to small companies
usually don't have the money for on-going training after paying for the software
and maintenance and I have seen numerous small companies that don't even pay the
maintenance.

Mark A. Peterson
Sr Design Engineer
Igloo Products Corp
-

[RonGrabau]

PTC puts out some very good training information. I have used these to help me understand what is new. These are free on PTC's website. If you don't have money for training, then use the tutorial below. Someone in your company must decide what goes into your config.pro and what is out of the box. A quick PowerPoint works as well. While this may not be as good as an instructor led training class it can help fill in the gaps.

The picture below is from the default browser window.


[cid:image001.png@01CC97D6.D2680650]

[hippe]

There are also many tutorials at: learningexchange.ptc.com, which is hosted by PTCU. You can also get eLearning, which is rich with content and offered for a very reasonable cost. The eLearning content is the same content that is the foundation of instructor led training, and is a purchase in the same vein as software. It is constantly being updated and an investment in maintenance will assure you can take advantage of fresh content as it is developed. You can also leverage your reseller who may provide sessions on tips & tricks, either onsite or via a Web broadcast. There is so much digital content available that there really isn't any reason a person who is willing can't get up to speed with the latest release without breaking the bank.

Doug Hippe
Technical Account Manager
EAC Product Development Solutions
1-888-225-7579 ext. 144

[DamianCastillo]

I personally don't think a Ribbon UI is a bad thing. When a Ribbon UI is implemented properfly, it can become very productive with some training, practice and time.

The problem we had with the WF5 Ribbon UI, is the inability to click on something and interact with it. You must be in the correct ribbon tab to interact with the drawing contents. This can be bypassed by holding down the ALT key but it's still poorly implemented. There are other issues with it, but I won't bother listing them.

Creo 1.0 has improved the Ribbion UI from Wildfire 5. ( I REFUSE to call it Creo/Elements Pro 5.0 )

People just need to face the fact that change happens and you need to embrace it or be left behind. Going into anything with a bad attitude is not smart. You need to first learn it, understand it and use it. I think most will find that the Ribbion UI is not that bad and in many cases would never go back to the old way.

"Too many people walk around like Clark Kent, because they don't realize they can Fly like Superman"

[A.DelNegro]

Well said, Damian. I agree, though I haven't had the pleasure (lol) of
using the ribbon in Pro/E or Creo as yet. I'm not sure I initially
liked the ribbon in Office 07, but I don't find any issues with it now.
I would hope that the programmers are focused on easier to use UI's,
which it sounds like, since the latest implementation seems better.
It's just a shame that it wasn't that good out of the box. PTC needs to
fully bake this stuff before releasing it, but that is typical PTC.



I still can't believe there are people not using intent manager. I
turned that on, on day one and haven't turned it off since. Not sure
how to function without it. In my opinion it's way faster, but I guess
if it's not for you, be thankful there is an 'off' button.



Tony

[dustin]

HERE HERE! I am so happy to see this forum with sensable feedback on the ribbon issue. We've been on WF5 since it's inception and I love the ribbon. I've noticed a major increase in my production, particularly on drawings with large models. It is so much easier to target specific drawing items which limits the computer crunching to just what you need.

I personally did not recieve any training on WF5, and yes it did take me some time to acclimate to the ribbon. I will say however, it took me much longer to acquire Wildfire from pre-wildfire than the couple weeks it took to fully grasp the potential of the ribbon. Change is essential, and when given a chance can be a great thing. I would never go pre WF5 if I can help it, and that is the atmosphere in our workplace.

In Reply to Damian Castillo:

I personally don't think a Ribbon UI is a bad thing. When a Ribbon UI is implemented properfly, it can become very productive with some training, practice and time.

The problem we had with the WF5 Ribbon UI, is the inability to click on something and interact with it. You must be in the correct ribbon tab to interact with the drawing contents. This can be bypassed by holding down the ALT key but it's still poorly implemented. There are other issues with it, but I won't bother listing them.

Creo 1.0 has improved the Ribbion UI from Wildfire 5. ( I REFUSE to call it Creo/Elements Pro 5.0 )

People just need to face the fact that change happens and you need to embrace it or be left behind. Going into anything with a bad attitude is not smart. You need to first learn it, understand it and use it. I think most will find that the Ribbion UI is not that bad and in many cases would never go back to the old way.

"Too many people walk around like Clark Kent, because they don't realize they can Fly like Superman"

[davehaigh]

There is a similar thread on the system admin mail list. The focus of that thread is how do you create standard company menus for the ribbon interface in Creo 1.0. Even though the ribbon interface is better in Creo 1.0 it still isn't as flexible as it should be.

I posted this response:
===
Last April I was at the Creo beta event and got to play with the software.
The issue of standard company mapkeys/menus was one of the issues I brought up with the developers.
To date nothing has change in this regard.

There's two basic problem as I see it.

1. You cannot add menus to the file menu.

2. You cannot add menus that are available regardless of the type of active file.

For example, let's say you have a mapkey that creates a new drawing based on a drawing template. Logically I would add a pick to create a new file, to the file menu and it would be available regardless of the mode you are currently in.

Plotting is another example. I don't create a plotting mapkey for every printer we have, however I do create plotting mapkeys for various types of output and where I want it. For example if you want to output a jpg, by default it will end up in your PDMLink workspace, I have a mapkey that puts it in the plot files directory. The print command is under the File menu, so that seems a logical place for my mapkeys. Once again you want these to be available regardless of the mode you are in.

Creo 1.0 doesn't allow you to add anything to the file menu. Also everything you add to the ribbons is dependent on the mode you are currently in. So a mapkey/menu can't work for both a part and an assembly. Which means you can't have a single consistent pick that loads a model tree config file to change the columns displayed in the model tree.

I applaud PTC effort to reduce the need for users to create their own mapkeys/menus. However let's face it, no matter how easy you make some tasks, there are going to be things for which a user needs or wants a mapkey, and they would like a consistent location to access it in the menus or ribbions.

David Haigh

[DamianCastillo]

Tony,

You actually know people who don't use "Intent Manager"? WOW!

I have been using it so long, I forgot it was an option. 🙂

You mentioned that PTC should fully bake this stuff before releasing it. Well, Creo 1.0 still has some major baggage from Pro/E 2001 that PTC needs to fix. The old "Menu Manager" is still alive and well in Creo 1.0, which I find unacceptable. I created a post about it in the PTC Community forums which I am starting to use more and more. I like the options and the community features much better than what Pro/User provides. sorry. 😞

Here is a link to that post I created.

http://communities.ptc.com/blogs/Proximo/2011/10/27/two-things-that-worry-me-about-creo-10

In Reply to Anthony DelNegro, P.E.:

Well said, Damian. I agree, though I haven't had the pleasure (lol) of
using the ribbon in Pro/E or Creo as yet. I'm not sure I initially
liked the ribbon in Office 07, but I don't find any issues with it now.
I would hope that the programmers are focused on easier to use UI's,
which it sounds like, since the latest implementation seems better.
It's just a shame that it wasn't that good out of the box. PTC needs to
fully bake this stuff before releasing it, but that is typical PTC.



I still can't believe there are people not using intent manager. I
turned that on, on day one and haven't turned it off since. Not sure
how to function without it. In my opinion it's way faster, but I guess
if it's not for you, be thankful there is an 'off' button.



Tony

[GavinBRumble]

I have used the WF5 ribbon on occasion and (mostly because it IS only on
occasion) I find it irritating. If I used it every day I would probably
find it infuriating. To me, the Ribbon tabs in MS Office (which I have been
using for 3 years) present a mash up of features that someone ELSE, ie, the
developers, thought should go together in a "typical" editing session. I
would rather they were in functional menu structures where you always knew
how to find them. They also take up a whole lot of screen real estate with
the large icons COMBINED with the command name which you are not allowed to
customize. Call me regressive, but leave ALL the commands in a logical menu
structure and then give me an icon toolbar which I can (and do) customize to
include the commands (or mapkeys) that I use a LOT (this addresses the
Productivity argument). Those (icons) you use a LOT are going to be
instantly recognizable...for the rest, the icons are completely useless
(IMHO). Quick, anyone, tell me what this icon in Word/Outlook does . Or
this one in WF5 . By contrast, everyone knows what these are... (all
from the customizable Toolbar). My point is, you can't memorize something
you don't use, or only use once in a blue moon, so why clutter up the sight
lines with it?



Gavin B. Rumble, PE

Solid Engineering

336-224-2312

[pfariello]

I thought I was the last one not to use intent manager. The intent manager on/off option goes away with WF5 so I finally took the time to learn to use it for when IT has time to move us past WF3. I use both ways now but for some sketches, especially editing sketch constraints, it is faster with it off.

Patrick Fariello

[JonathanHodgson]

So far we've stuck with WF4, but we *have* been upgraded to Office 2007.



I'm trying not to be a reactionary Luddite, but my general impression of
the Ribbon is that it's increased the number of mouse clicks to do a
task - particularly if you include the extra click to return to the
'Home' tab after you've done it.



For example, "Tools -> Goal Seek" (two clicks or Alt-T-G) is now "Data
-> What-If Analysis -> Goal Seek" (Alt-A-W-G), and "File -> Print
Preview" (Alt-F-V I think) is now "Funny thing in the corner -> Print ->
Print Preview" (with a delay while you wait for the fly-out), and the
key sequence (after some puzzling) now seems to be Alt-F-W-V (not sure
what the W stands for).



The loss of screen space is another significant point - with a
widespread move to widescreen monitors, and netbooks with lower vertical
res (not so relevant for CAD, admittedly) the top of the screen is not
the part that should be sacrificed, IMHO...



All-in-all, my experience with Office isn't making me rush to WF5 - in
any case, we'll probably wait for Creo 1 or later to get the second
version of the Pro/E ribbon.



Jonathan

[DamianCastillo]

Gavin,

On Creo 1.0, you can add and remove icons, show them with or without text, small or large icon and even create your own tabs. I think there should be enough flexibility there to help you find a happy place. 🙂

You can also have the Ribbon autohide so it's not taking up screen space until you are ready to access it. 🙂

In Reply to Gavin Rumble:

I have used the WF5 ribbon on occasion and (mostly because it IS only on
occasion) I find it irritating. If I used it every day I would probably
find it infuriating. To me, the Ribbon tabs in MS Office (which I have been
using for 3 years) present a mash up of features that someone ELSE, ie, the
developers, thought should go together in a "typical" editing session. I
would rather they were in functional menu structures where you always knew
how to find them. They also take up a whole lot of screen real estate with
the large icons COMBINED with the command name which you are not allowed to
customize. Call me regressive, but leave ALL the commands in a logical menu
structure and then give me an icon toolbar which I can (and do) customize to
include the commands (or mapkeys) that I use a LOT (this addresses the
Productivity argument). Those (icons) you use a LOT are going to be
instantly recognizable...for the rest, the icons are completely useless
(IMHO). Quick, anyone, tell me what this icon in Word/Outlook does . Or
this one in WF5 . By contrast, everyone knows what these are... (all
from the customizable Toolbar). My point is, you can't memorize something
you don't use, or only use once in a blue moon, so why clutter up the sight
lines with it?



Gavin B. Rumble, PE

Solid Engineering

336-224-2312

[DamianCastillo]

Patrick,

If you want to turn any constraint or assumption off, you can right click the mouse. it will toggle from locking, to ingnore and back to intent.

Just saying. 🙂

In Reply to Patrick Fariello:

I thought I was the last one not to use intent manager. The intent manager on/off option goes away with WF5 so I finally took the time to learn to use it for when IT has time to move us past WF3. I use both ways now but for some sketches, especially editing sketch constraints, it is faster with it off.

Patrick Fariello

[A.DelNegro]

Patrick,

I would suspect that the IM is quicker once you know it but I've been
using it so long that I find the old method very clunky. I would be
interested in seeing the situation you speak of. I think I get probably
80% of the correct constraints without having to enter the constraint
dialog...

[ptc-1932745]

After thinking about this again for a couple of days, and having to do a
series of drawings in WF5, I think that the ribbon is not 'in your face'
enough.



When working on drawings, and especially on a larger screen, I find
myself focusing entirely on the drawing sheet and the mouse pointer and
ignoring all of the icons, tabs, ribbons round the edges of my view.
Only when the mouse clicks act in a way I don't expect do I look up to
see what ribbon tab I am in.



Maybe of the ribbons for each functional task was a different shape, or
color, or whatever... I would better notice that what I am trying to do
is not available in the current tab.



But again I take issue with this idea that we are going back to an
action-object workflow(classic pre-WF pro-e workflow) as opposed to an
object-action workflow (the new hotness as of WF1 or so).





Christopher F. Gosnell



FPD Company

124 Hidden Valley Road

McMurray, PA 15317

[TimKnier]

I don't know about the "in your face" enough. I think there has to be better access to the tabs of the ribbon. PTC seems to have focused on reduced mouse movement and with all of the menu selections available with the right mouse button click they've done a great job. However, while working in drawings on WF5 there has been countless times when I've been in one ribbon and needed to do something only available in another ribbon. So I have to go back up and select the correct ribbon a lot. I know you can do the Alt button but my left hand likes not having to do anything. So my suggestion would be to make the ribbon tabs available to select in the right mouse button menu pop ups.

Tim Knier
QG Product & Support Engineering
QuadTech
A Subsidiary of Quad/Graphics
Sussex, Wisconsin
414-566-7439 phone
-<">mailto:->
www.quadtechworld.com<">http://www.quadtechworld.com>

[JonathanHodgson]

"...my left hand likes not having to do anything..."



I'll counter that one... I often feel that my left hand is
under-utilised, and I like working with keypresses where the key is
always in exactly the same place - unlike a mouse, where you first have
to ascertain where the pointer is, and then go through a feedback
control loop to move it to a new position.



I use mapkeys and keyboard shortcuts extensively (in Pro/E and in
Windows generally), and I would welcome their inclusion in new releases
of Pro/E / Creo.



Jonathan

[ptc-593619]

Get a Space traveler/ball/navigator, your left hand is never neglected
again. Use it to zoom, pan and rotate in the model and the first two in
the drawing. Of course, you may have other things to do with that
hand...



Richard A. Black

Lead Design Engineer

Eaton Corporation

440 Murray Hill Road

Southern Pines

NC 28387 USA



tel: 910 695 2905

fax: 910 695 2901

-

www.eaton.com

[TimKnier]

I use to have a Space Ball for zooming, panning and rotating. I thought it was great and I used it constantly, but after I finally wore it out our IT department felt they weren’t necessary and not worth the money to replace.

Tim Knier
QG Product & Support Engineering
QuadTech
A Subsidiary of Quad/Graphics
Sussex, Wisconsin
414-566-7439 phone
-<">mailto:->
www.quadtechworld.com<">http://www.quadtechworld.com>

[JonathanHodgson]

Admittedly I’ve never used a Spaceball for any length of time (although the movie was quite good ;-), but I don’t have a problem using the mouse to spin/pan/zoom – it doesn’t matter where the cursor is, so it’s quick and easy.



Mapkeys and keyboard shortcuts save me having to hit a small area of the screen to select a particular tool; in AutoCAD I’m forever missing toolbuttons, probably because I try to work too quickly and I’ve moved the mouse off the toolbutton before I release the mouse button. I don’t have that problem with keyboard shortcuts! I never click on Edit -> Copy (or even the Copy toolbutton), because I can just press Ctrl+C.



The nicest CAD system I’ve ever found to use was RADAN, where the mouse was mostly used just to point and the keyboard did the actions, e.g.:



(point at line) F (select Feature)

(point at other line) F (select another Feature)

Shift+7 (trim both lines to each other)



This approach to the UI required almost zero mouse travel – the pointer never left the drawing area – because all the ‘toolbuttons’ were on the keyboard.



Jonathan

[pfariello]

It is mostly when editing a sketch where the constraints of the original sketch are not as valid with the new sketch. With IM off, it is a mapkey to "move entity", a click and drag to move sketch features and a mapkey to regenerate. With IM off, the constaints do not affect the way I drag sketch features.

Most every function I do with Pro starts with a mapkey. This is probably why I have stayed away from IM. With mapkeys, I am in and out of the sketch very quickly. As I said, I now use both interchangeably. I have rewritten my mapkeys so they work in and out of IM.

Not sure why, but I am not seeing the right click option to toggle constraint? Also can I toggle all off at once?


As an example, below is an instance when I would have it off going from the top sketch to the bottom sketch.
Patrick Fariello

[cid:image002.gif@01CC9955.4EE5BA90]

[A.DelNegro]

Patrick,



It's not a RMB menu to disable a constraint... With IM on, constraints
appear as you get close to one. i.e. this image shows the Tangency
constraint as you get close to the tangent of the circle.







If you don't want a constraint, when it appears you can simply RMB click
to turn it off (or click again to turn it back on sometimes) as shown
below... In this picture I crossed the midpoint of the horizontal line
and cancel that when the line got close to vertical I canceled that.
This allowed me to make the line tangent to the circle without snapping
to vertical or to the midpoint of the line...

[JonathanHodgson]

You can also Shift+RMB to lock a constraint, when it gives you one you
definitely want; and Tab cycles through the various currently active
constraints - RMB will switch the one that's highlighted in red.



Best regards,

Jonathan

[DamianCastillo]

Patrick,

When drawing a new entity such as a line. IM makes assumptions as you
drag your mouse around. If the line is almost horizontal it will add an H
and snap to a horizontal position. If you keep dragging the mouse around,
the IM will assume other constraints on the fly. When you see a
constraint assumption made by IM, you can right click the mouse to lock
that constraint assumption. If you right click it again, you can force it
to ignore the constraint assumption. This allows you to freely sketch
exactly what you want and by-pass any constraint assumptions made by
sketcher.

The example you show for when you turn off intent manager is simple for me
to deal with using IM. I would simply drag a window over the Vertical
constraints and delete them. Now a dimension will show on top that I can
either modify or simply drag the sketch to the new shape. It's fast to
remove constraints.

If you wanted to remove them all, you could do a drag window around the
entire sketch and delete the constraints. Not sure why I would ever do
this, but your could. You could also drag a window around several
constraints and then hold control key and pick other constraints to add
them to selection and then hit the delete key.

The power of intent manager is great if you experiment with it.

Here is a video link to a YouTube video I made for you. Hope it helps.