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"Engineer"

BettinaGiemsa
17-Peridot

"Engineer"

Hi there,

I have question to the native speakers of English here. I am German, and I am sometimes overwhelmed with the extensive use of the term "engineer" in the English language. Of course, I know what it means and I know that there is an endless number engineering disciplines. For the disciplines, we have at least as many in Germany, I am sure.

However, I think "engineer" is also being used heavily to describe job profiles beyond (mechanical) engineering, whereas, in German, we would use several different terms. In other words, the term is so broad, that I, as a foreigner, feel not always 100% confident iwhen addressing a customer.

Could it happen that someone would feel offended, if I said "you, as an engineer", because it would be more appropriate to say "mechanical engineer" or "design engineer"?

A related question: Are you happy with your job title and does it fully describe what you are doing?

Does this question make sense at all? Let me know...

Bettina


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13 REPLIES 13

Hi Bettina,

Yes, it can be a problem in English-speaking countries - England/Britain in particular!

I don't think anyone will be offended to be called an "engineer", but you are right - it is often used instead of "technician" or even just "operator". There are many people who think that "engineer" should be legally protected, only allowed to be used by Chartered Engineers, but I don't think it's really possible to control this in everyday language.

What annoys engineers is a repair technician being called a "photocopier engineer", or a "washing machine engineer" - or even a rubbish collector being a "sanitation engineer"!

But I think there is no problem calling a true engineer, simply "engineer".

The head train operator is also called the engineer. This person controls all aspects of the train. This term has been in use for ever. I think it is a more valid use of the word Engineer then Sanitation Engineer. Sometimes people are just trying to make an unwanted job sound important.

It would be nice if engineer was reserved for people that are actually doing engineering work. Oh well.

Just for completeness: I believe "engineer" for "train driver" is American English only (and New Zealand, according to Wikipedia). It's not used in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_engineer

I suppose if the person who drives a chariot is a charioteer, then the person who drives an engine must be an engineer...

Paul's correct. This is really a "language problem" however.

The person who drives a train is the person who operates the engine of the train... that person is called an "engineer."

A person who does what we do is also called an "engineer" but the word has a totally different meaning in that context. It means, essentially, "a person who's profession is to be ingenious."

So... "drive a train" or "use ingenuity" both end up using the same word.

I actually have tossed out an idea which I hope someday may catch on. I don't mind surrendering the word "engineer" at all, if we have a better term, which better describes what we do. And I think we DO have a term which better describes what we do.

Engineers, in the sense that we use the term, are actually "applied scientists," aren't we?

People think of "scientists" and they normally think of the "ivory tower, dreaming dreams" sort of people. The ones who make discoveries solely for the purpose of making discoveries, and generally speaking survive based entirely on government grants. I would say we should call these individuals "theoretical scientists."

But we, as engineers, do much the same thing, but with different purposes and goals. We do not invent "purely for the advancement of knowledge," and our experimentation is expected to produce real, useful results. We ARE scientists. We are simply "applied scientists"... using the scientific method, and our understanding of various scientific areas of study, to create practical results.

I'd be happy to change my business card to read "Senior Mechanical Design Scientist" since that really is more clear in describing what I do for a living. "Ingenuity" is implicit in the above, isn't it?

In the 60's it became a joke that a housewife (stay at home mom) returning to work would put "Domestic Engineer" on her resume. Though I have sympathy for the term, "Engineer" has become a much over used term. Anybody that works in any technical capacity is called an engineer:

  • Contract manager: Project Engineer
  • Technical sales: Applications engineer
  • CAD operator: Design Engineer

The ASME states that only degreed engineers should have the title "Engineer." In some states, Michigan included, it is not lawful to call a company an Engineering Company unless a certain percentage of the company principals are licensed engineers.

Apple has taken another tack. All of their technicians are geniuses. Maybe we should compound the oxymoron and call them all geniuses to deflate that title and make the engineering title a little more exclusive.

Bob

I've seen people with PE on their business card meaining they are Project Engineer's. May not even be a "real" engineer. If someone claims to be an engineer, I don't hesiate from talking in engineering terms. You can spot the fakes. Their eyes glaze over.

Bob

Hey

I am a Belgian and have tried to become a industrial engineer at school. I did not succeed. After 30 years on the floor as a technician I became designer, first with Inventor, then with Pro-Engineer. I do not call myself an ingeneer but a mechanical designer. Maybe i am not enough theoretical but practical I seem to do well even in English and French better than some colleges who are ingeneer of diplome. I mean it is not what you have of scholing, its what you know.

And a title, you can have it if you want, I dont need it if I earn my money in a proper way.

Chris

All, thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

I agree with Christiaan, that you don't necessarily have to have a specific degree from a school, to have expertise in engineering. And Bob, I totally agree that you can soon find out who has expertise in a subject and who does only pretend so. Talk to people and you will soon find out who they are and what they know, don't trust titles too much.

The "domestic engineer" and "sanitation engineer" lead me to a follow-up question: what is the most inappropriate use of "engineer" you have ever seen or heard?

I must say, that I owe Christiaan an apology. Christiaan, if you are reading this, I didn't mean to sound so arrogant.

I also have known many capable and talented non-degreed engineers. A couple that I have worked with for years are two of the most talented and creative people I have ever known. We hold a number of patents together. I do have a hard time when the term is thrown around so cavilerly that it has no meaning.

As to your follow up question on inappropriate use: My wife of 30 years has read and corrected every academic paper I've ever written, clear through my PhD. Early in our marriage we decided that we wouldn't have somebody else raise our children. So, she was a "stay-at-home" Mom. In her case, "Domestic Engineer" isn't a bad title.

The most inappropriate use I think I've seen is that of contract managers calling themselves Project Engineer then putting PE on their business card. In the US, PE implies Professional Engineer or licensed engineer. That, at least, I think is worth a sneer.

Bob

I agree that people using 'PE' on their business cards is the worst application of the word. I saw this a few times a year when working in automotive and would always ask about the PE (Professional Engineer) exam because of the changes to the format / grading - most of the time the questions were met with confused looks and the explanation that it meant 'project engineer' and that their definition of project engineer was closer to my definition of project manager.

As for the word engineer it's definitely out of our hands now - not sure how other languages and cultures use the word but I hear engineer used to describe everything from technicians to machinists to metallurgists.
At my previous company there was a separate pay rate for 'designers' vs 'engineers' because the engineers needed at least a Bachelor's degree. The CAD designers preferred to be called designers and the industrial engineers in the plant preferred to be called engineers.

-Tom

Hey there

I did not need an apology. Like I said I do not call myself an Engineer. But it was kind of you all.I will say it again: a title you can take or get, without knowing anything. The only proof is your work, whitch allows you to call yourself someone. I want be the one who juges that, I am not clever are good enough to do such a things. If you think you can, you have to do so.

With me, an engineer of my work took the same lessons of Pro E. He did not design anything in 6 months. I suspect he does not know anymore how to do it. That I find is much worse than calling yourself engineer without knowing a thing about technics.

Chris

Bettina,

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments, and I find it very disconcerting.

I see the term "engineer" as being a description of a profession. For a parallel, you may consider the word "doctor."

In the USA, we do not have a strong governing structure controlling who is permitted to refer to themself as an "engineer." We DO have strong structures about other professions such as "doctors."

As a result, pretty much anyone can claim to be "an engineer." I do not consider such claims on their parts to be valid, but there is no "rule" preventing such usage of the term.

There are people who consider this to be a matter of "social status." Some very smart, very experienced people claim to be "engineers" but do not meet the requirements which many of us believe are "minimum" for the use of the word. To me, an "engineer" must, at a minimum, have a full education as an engineer from a fully acredited institution, and must have a number of years of experience under the direct supervision of a fully qualified engineer. I am open to the use of terms like "engineer in training" or "associate engineer" to describe the positions held by these as-yet-inexperienced persons.

There are more extreme perspectives... those who believe that without a "Professional Engineer licence" you should not be permitted to call yourself an engineer. I do not object to that, but I don't feel that this is really useful or necessary.

Please note... the term "engineer" is not a term of praise, and refusing to call someone an "engineer" is not a way of belittling them. It is simply a way of providing information about the training and experience level of the person.

Using the "medical doctor" analogy, for instance, you have to have attended a medical school, and you need to pass certain exams. These only say that you've been taught the minimum required to call yourself a "doctor." It says nothing at all about whether or not you are a GOOD doctor, or perhaps a very BAD doctor. Only that you can legitimately call yourself a "doctor."

It is entirely possible for a person who has never attended medical school, or taken any medical certification board examination, to know more than a fully qualified doctor about some health issues. It is entirely possible for a "board certified" doctor to be totally incompetent. The use of the term "doctor" is not a term of PRAISE, it is a way of conveying information, nothing more.

Unfortunately, since we have no firm definitions of the term "engineer" here, you will find some people who describe themselves as such while they lack the minimum requirements to legitimately refer to themselves as an engineer. This represents both a lack of respect for the term, and a lack of understanding for what it means. It ceases to be a way of conveying information about a specific set of qualifications and simply becomes a form of "self-praise."

In answer to your question about "giving offense," I would not be concerned. ALL "real engineers" must have, at a bare minimum, a full grounding in mathematics, in chemistry, in materials science, in physics, in electromagnetism... and in project managment and other "non-technical" disciplines as well. These are the BARE MINIMUM. We all share these in common.

Beyond that, we have areas of specialization. A software engineer need not be an expert in material science, and a structural engineer need not be an expert in non-linear methods of software optimization. But we all need to share a common foundation of knowledge.

SO... if someone calls me an "engineer" they are not offending me. They are providing accurate, meaningful information about me. They could further refine their definition, but that should only be relevant or necessary if the "refinement" actually matters in the context of the current conversation.

Finally... my title is "Senior Mechanical Design Engineer." I am completely happy with this definition, as it defines my position (the senior mechanical engineer in the company) and makes it clear that I do not do "only" design work, or "only" analytical work, but do the full gamut of the engineering workload (from conceptualization, to creating full working models, assemblies, and drawings, to performing all variety of analysis, to performing project management functions). I've earned this position... I certainly would never have "self-promoted" myself to this role until I had the level of experience and knowledge I have today.

I hope this answer is helpful to you.

Got a little story for you all that goes along with the original post. When I was in the 4th grade, my math teacher ask us a question that was a little over our heads. I stuck my hand up and she called on me to answer. I actually answered the question well, but not completely. She said, "Wow, that's a good answer. You should be an engineer." I thought to myself, "I don't want to drive trains!" I wasn't until high school that I was applying for college and I remembered that and realized, "Oh yeah, I do want to be an engineer." Turns out I did become an engineer, a mechanical engineer that is.

Ok, so this doesn't go exactly with what you originally posted but

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