Sketcher Intent Manager

[jnelson]

During a recent PTC/USER Technical Committee meeting we had a discussion about the Sketcher Intent Manager.

This discussion made me curious as to if there are still users that find the need to turn off the Intent Manager, which is why I am writing.

If there is anyone that still turns off the Sketcher Intent Manager, can you please respond to the questions below?

1. What are the circumstances that causes you to turn off the Intent Manager?

2. If you are importing data, is this done as a "normal" sketch with the intent to drive geometry with that sketch, or as a cosmetic sketch where you are probably not looking to drive geometry?

Please note that the reason of "Because it is annoying", is NOT specific enough.

In order to present the need for this, I need specific use cases (models and/or written) in which users turn off intent manager and still want to do something non-cosmetic with the resulting sketch.

Thanks....

Joel Nelson

PTC/USER Sheetmetal TC Chair

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[ptc-1932745]

Although no constraints manager is perfect, there are three things I
would like to see added to IM that are missing now:



1) Change a dim from driving to driven(reference) and back again
Right now the change is one way only.



2) Interrogate the sketch for all of the constraints, either by
sketch, or by element
No interrogation is allowed now, unless there is a conflict, and
then some of the constraints are not listed.



3) Show me (change the color) of elements of the sketch that are
fully constrained.
Showing the open ends of a sketch is helpful.



As of WF4, these things are not available, AFAIK.





Christopher Gosnell

TRIGON INC.
FPD Company
124 Hidden Valley Road
McMurray, PA 15317
PH: 724.941.5540
FX: 724.941.8322
www.fpdinc.com

[rrich]

While we are putting together a wish list how about these.



Better rectangle tool. Either 3 point rectangle or the ability to rotate
the rectangle after creating it.



Ability to pattern a selection set of entities or entity in sketcher



Ron Rich

DIRECTOR of MECHANICAL SYSTEMS



smartshape

www.smartshapedesign.com

[kwsauter]

How about the ability to rotate an entire sketch 90° and have all the horizontal and vertical constraints change accordingly? Or rotate the sketch 45° and have the constraints change to perpendicular and parallel instead of horizontal and vertical? Or how about piling constraint upon constraint, as long as they don't conflict, and allowing me to decide which constraint governs the sketch? And how about showing me ALL of the constraints instead of just the constraints Proe thinks I want to deal with? There are actually two sets of constraints going on in a Proe sketch. There are those constraints we apply in sketching, and then there are the constraints Proe assumes and won't let us change. I want to change ALL of the constraints, not just the ones Proe thinks I want to change. Proe is frequently WRONG about which constraints I want to change.


Ken Sauter
DRS Reconnaissance Surveillance and Target Acquisition
Infrared Technologies Division
PO Box 740188
Dallas, TX 75374
214-860-6826
- <">mailto:->

[dgschaefer]

Chris,

Regarding your #3, every entity in sketcher is fully constrained when
you create it. Pro|E throws dims and constraints on it to do so. What
might be nice is a color break for user added constraints/dims vs Pro|E
assumptions. It's there, sorta, in the gray vs. yellow, but some
constraints come in yellow rather than gray. It'd be great if
everything created by Pro|E was gray and everything created by the user
or converted into strong by the user was yellow.

I'd love an option to automatically turn all dims and constraints to
strong when exiting sketcher. Sometimes I like the constraints that
Pro|E adds, but going through one by one and 'strengthening' them is
tedious. Exiting sketcher says I like the way it is, make it strong.

Doug Schaefer

[cfly]

Amen. So many times when I add a constraint and Pro tells me it conflicts
with existing constraints, the one I want to get rid of is not in the list,
and I have to cancel, delete the constraint I don't want, then recreate the
new constraint.



Then, there are the times when it simply will not allow me to change a given
dimension, but I can drag the geometry to bring that dimension up or down to
near what I want, then change the value to the exact dimension I want.



If it works one way, it should work the other, rather than forcing me to use
two operations to get what I want.

[ptc-936529]

One of the things I remember from training long ago was that you first sketch out of scale and orientation until you get the geometry shape you want then apply constrains. The seems to be more important now than with older version of Pro. This technique will allow you to set all of your own constraints without proe setting any. If Pro does set one, then RMB to disable it. If you keep your sketches simple you want have an issue with IM.

Just my .02

[kwsauter]

At least we don't have to deal with the old sketcher. I'd be in an insane asylum by now if that were the case.


Ken Sauter
DRS Reconnaissance Surveillance and Target Acquisition
Infrared Technologies Division
PO Box 740188
Dallas, TX 75374
214-860-6826
- <">mailto:->

[ptc-169947]

Carol's opening point is especially true in sheetmetal mode, and is very frustrating (Btw, I'm a huge advocate of IM, yet feel that the option to turn it off should always be available because there are times, albiet it rarely, when IM cannot handle a sketch for whatever reason).

Stefan

[mpeterson]

WF5 has improved the rectangle tool to allow drawing rectangles rotatated and also parallelagrams. Nice improvement.

On the other hand I do not like the new drawing module where you must be in a particular tab like Annoate, Layout, Table, etc to be able modify entities. Thus you can not just click on a view or text or table or what ever and modify anything unless you are in that Tab.

Mark A. Peterson
Sr Design Engineer
Igloo Products Corp
-

[cfly]

Not surprising; in my experience, the drawing module has become more
cumbersome with each software release. I am happy to no longer be using this
module on a daily basis since WF 1, when they took away WYSIWYG on line
fonts and broke the grid snap functionality.

[ptc-141274]

This feature is the new ribbons, which came from the new MS Office
suite. Expect to see this in the other modules in the future.



Actually you can select an object that is not related to your current
tab. Press the ALT key and then select the object.



I am still on WF4 but looking forward to upgrading.



Doug Pogatetz

Mechanical Design Engineer

Northrop Grumman Corporation

[janderson2]

I have to turn off intent manager on a semi regular basis (maybe once a month). The main reason for this is that it creates weak dimensions but, if I dimension according to the way that I want the sketch, it will sometimes keeps the weak dimension and tries to force me to deletemy dimensiondue to the sketch being over constrained. Even if I make the weak dimension strong it generally does not give me the option of deleting it when I add mine. Running WF4.

[anagnost]

Doug,

I completely disagree with automatically turning weak dimensions to
strong ones when you exit the sketcher. The dimensions are there, even
if they are strong or weak, you can always modify them.

Many times you have to exit the sketcher with an incomplete (not fully
dimensioned or constrained) sketch. Later on, when you are returning
back to the sketcher, you know that you have to do some work with the
weak dimensions... Also, when you are reviewing somebody else's models,
weak dimensions is a point that you have to consider.

Vassilis Anagnostopoulos*
*
O/H Doug Schaefer ?γραψε:
> Chris,
>
> Regarding your #3, every entity in sketcher is fully constrained when
> you create it. Pro|E throws dims and constraints on it to do so.
> What might be nice is a color break for user added constraints/dims vs
> Pro|E assumptions. It's there, sorta, in the gray vs. yellow, but
> some constraints come in yellow rather than gray. It'd be great if
> everything created by Pro|E was gray and everything created by the
> user or converted into strong by the user was yellow.
>
> I'd love an option to automatically turn all dims and constraints to
> strong when exiting sketcher. Sometimes I like the constraints that
> Pro|E adds, but going through one by one and 'strengthening' them is
> tedious. Exiting sketcher says I like the way it is, make it strong.
>
> *Doug Schaefer*
> 

[dgschaefer]

I can certainly see that this wouldn't be a universal request. Perhaps a config option to allow for this behavior if a user desires it.

More consistent handling of weak constraints is definitely needed. All Pro|E generated dims and constraints should be weak and weak dims & constraints should always be the first to be removed when there is a conflict.

Doug Schaefer

[bkurth]

Personally, I would like to be prompted upon exit of whether I am complete, or not. If I am complete, then all weak dims could be made strong, otherwise the dims would be stored where they are. The issue I have with weak dims is when we say we'll "get back to them," many times we don't. Then later wemake a change and things happen we do not want—sometimes without our knowledge, if we're working on someone else's model, for example.

Brian

[pauldelong]

I agree, this would be good for weak dimensions and weak constraints



Paul

[jonfawcett]

As a consulting company, we have to use the CAD our clients' ask for and
I've had had to do quite a bit in SolidWorks this week. I am going to jump
in and say that I will never complain about Sketcher or IM. It's amazing how
easy it is to find fault with something until you've used something that is
significantly worse. As a Pro/E user since 1993 Rev 7, I'd peg the quality
of SW's sketcher at nearly the quality of Pro/E's in Rev 7. I'll take
auto-created weak dimensions any day vs. a software that allows me to
complete a sketch with no dimensions.



Jon





signaturecard1

[ptc-46674]

what is the benefit of converting weak dimension to strong ?

I usually don't mess around with changing weak dimensions to strong.

as long as they are attached to the reference that I want.

Dave McClinton

Sr. Mechanical Designer / System Admin

McKessson Autoamtion

724 741 7760

[mainman]

On the drafting side of things, the weak dimensions basically become
strong when you place the parametric dimensions on the views. I
personally would prefer if weak dimensions didn't show at all on the
drawings or they would be grayed out like they are on the sketcher.



Sincerely,

Rick L.
Design Draftsman: Husky Corporation

[pfariello]

As a user who does not us IM, would someone please explain what weak dimensions are? I can imagine but I would like to be sure.

Thanks,

Patrick

[dgschaefer]

For me, dimensions communicate design intent. When I see a weak dim in
a sketch, that communicates to me that design intent isn't captured, at
least not intentionally. It may be that the last person wanted it this
way or it could be that they just went with what Pro|E thought was good.
Now, if I want to modify that I need to do more digging into the model
to see if it's the intended dim or a convenient one. Strengthening
them, if I want to keep them, communicates to the next guy (usually me,
6-12 months later) that this is exactly what I want.

There's nothing wrong with them, per se, they control geometry the same.
The only functional limitation is that they will disappear without
prompting (usually) if there's a conflict between them and newly placed
dims or constraints.

Doug Schaefer

[koch_michael_j]

Don't forget that weak dims may also carry a large nuber of digits beyond
the decimnal point that do not display on screen.





Doug Schaefer <>
03/05/2010 10:33 AM
Please respond to
Doug Schaefer <>


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Subject
[proecad] - RE: Sketcher Intent Manager




Caterpillar: Confidential Green Retain Until: 04/04/2010



For me, dimensions communicate design intent.  When I see a weak dim in a
sketch, that communicates to me that design intent isn't captured, at
least not intentionally.  It may be that the last person wanted it this
way or it could be that they just went with what Pro|E thought was good.
Now, if I want to modify that I need to do more digging into the model to
see if it's the intended dim or a convenient one.  Strengthening them, if
I want to keep them, communicates to the next guy (usually me, 6-12 months
later) that this is exactly what I want.

There's nothing wrong with them, per se, they control geometry the same.
The only functional limitation is that they will disappear without
prompting (usually) if there's a conflict between them and newly placed
dims or constraints.
Doug Schaefer

[dgschaefer]

As you sketch, IM will dimension and constrain the sketch automatically.
These dims come in 'weak' and show as gray rather than yellow to
distinguish them from user created dims. The weak dims get replaced
automatically (usually) as you create your own dims and constraints.
Weak is an unfortunate term as they aren't any less capable of
controlling the geometry. Maybe temporary is a better way to think of
them. You can convert a weak to a strong, but not the other way around.

Doug Schaefer

[ptc-46674]

Summary : what is the benefit of converting weak dimension to strong

1. Strengthening them, if I want to keep them, communicates to the next guy (usually me,
6-12 months later) that this is exactly what I want.

<u>I think this is the best answer / reason for converting weak to strong. </u>

2. There's nothing wrong with them, per se, they control geometry the same.
The only functional limitation is that they <strike>will</strike> possible can disappear without
prompting (usually) if there's a conflict between them and newly placed
dims or constraints.

<u>This is true</u>

3. As you sketch, IM will dimension and constrain the sketch automatically.
These dims come in 'weak' and show as gray rather than yellow to
distinguish them from user created dims. The weak dims get replaced
automatically (usually) as you create your own dims and constraints.
Weak is an unfortunate term as they aren't any less capable of
controlling the geometry. <u>Maybe temporary is a better way to think of
them.</u>

<u>I don't think temporary is accurate more like Intent Manager auto generated dimensioning scheme ?</u>

Below list some statements that were posted and are not correct "in my experience using ProE"

4. On the drafting side of things, the weak dimensions basically become
strong when you place the parametric dimensions on the views.

<u>T</u><u>his is not true in ProE wildfire 4.0 M092, I am not sure about earlier versions or date codes.</u> When I go back into the part and do a redefine feature the dimensions maintain the state they had originally in sketcher mode "weak, strong, locked"

5. First and foremost it allows you to show the dimensioning scheme you want your detailed drawing to show. When you do the show/erase only those dimensions show up.

<u>This is not true, all dimensions from the Sketch show up in the drawing when you use show dimension. </u>

6. Second, making the constraints what you want drives the robustness of the model.

<u>Weak dimension control the design just as well as strong dimensions, if they are attached to the reference that you want. </u>But I agree they should be converted to strong see items #1 above, It lets other designers know you've looked at the dimension scheme and the sketch is constrained the way you intended.

thanks for all the input from everyone, I will be converting all weak dimensions to strong in the future and I will bring this up at our next best practices meeting here at McKesson.

Dave

[StephenW]

Here's a tip for people who are anal (me) about getting rid of all weak dimensions. You can search for weak dimension in Pro/Program.

Here's what I do. Go to TOOLS, PROGRAM, SHOW DESIGN, FROM MODEL (you can go to EDIT DESIGN, but it puts you into notepad and you can change stuff and it adds an annoying yes/no when you close it)
At the top of the window that pops up, choose EDIT, SEARCH. There will be a search box that pops up. Type weak in the box (lower case, yes it's case sensitive). It will go to the feature with weak dimensions. Usually you have to scroll up a little to see what feature number contains the weak dimensions.

Have fun

[pfariello]

While speaking with the PTC gentleman at the conference, he stated that in WF 5.0, the option to turn off IM is completely removed. The option is still there for Cosmetic Sketch Features. He assured me that (paraphrasing) "all issues with having to work outside of IM have been fixed". (I let that slide in the discussion, I guess time will tell)

BTW, how can hidden config options be turned on? Has anyone been able to turn off IM in WF 5.0?

Thanks,

Patrick Fariello