WF5 Detailing UI

[jasonb13]

We adopted WF5 last week and I have had nothing but complaints from the user community regarding the increased amount of clicks to complete tasks. They have also found multiple problems using the show annotations tool. Does anyoneone have similar experiences or found ways to reduce the number of clicks in WF5 detailing.

[Ken.L.Nunn]

I absolutely agree with Olaf .

[DaveHeipel]

Olaf,

You can set up the menu the way you depict. The first thing to do is go to the Toolbars tab in the Customize dialog box. In the upper right corner is a pulldown that lets you specify Left or Right for the menu bar. I just found that yesterday. It is also possible to arrange your toolbars below the menus as shown in one of the attached pictures. Of course now it's starting to take up a lot of vertical space.

I'm still playing with the UI and thinking about the optimal arrangement. I may have to minimize the ribbon and see how that plays out with the work flow. This discussion has helped a lot to get the ideas flowing.

Hi Raphael,

Thanks a lot for joining this discussion. This shows how dedicated PTC
is at listening to their customers.

One of *my* biggest complaints for now is about the position of the
standard File, Edit, View menu's.
With the Ribbon UI they were moved to the top *right* side of the
screen. They were obviously moved over there to save valuable screen
space.
But that is not intuitive at all. I know of *no* other Windows
application that has these commands in an other corner than the top
*left* corner.
Also some of these commands will be only available in a flyout menu on
smaller screen resolutions:



I was also told that these standard menu's will be gone in future
releases of ProE anyway.
With that I have to disagree completely. The fact that Microsoft decided
they didn't need them anymore in Office should not be the reason to
remove them from Pro/E. The idea behind the Ribbon Interface was to
simplify the command structure to a more taks based structure where you
just simply follow the task in the tab's from left to right and then
your finished. But working with 3D and 2D CAD is way more complex than
working with Office documents.

I think that PTC should keep on concentrating on an multi driven User
Interface with

*
General menu's: File, Edit, etc (with all the commands and
additional commands provided by toolkit applications)
These should be placed in the top left corner.
*
Toolbars (with the most important commands)
*
Ribbon UI (with all the commands)
Including a lot of the optimizations suggested by the users.
Like a quick Ribbon UI close/open button.
*
Dashboards
*
Mapkeys

To underline my idea. Here a Photoshopped version of the WF5 Drawing UI
as I would prefer it with the standard menu's in the top left corner and
a quick Ribbon UI toggle button.:



Olaf Corten
CAD/PLM Manager, Besi Competence Center - Other Business Applications
Fico BV, Ratio 6, 6921 RW Duiven, The Netherlands
Tel.: +31 26 3196215
Fax: +31 26 3196200
Mobile: +31 644548554
www.fico.nl http://www.fico.nl

[RaphaelCNascime]

Hi Jim,

The buttons for commands in the Ribbon can be customized. You can either
select Tools > Customize Screen or just select Commands... from the menu
if you right-click on the Ribbon.



If you right-click on an individual command, you have options to display
the button with just an icon (no label), just the label (no icon), or
even make it a large button.



This should get saved with your config.win settings and stay that way
next time you start Pro/E.











I hope this helps.



Regards,

Raphael





Raphael Nascimento

Product Manager

Pro/ENGINEER Detailing

[jasonb13]

In Reply to Raphael Nascimento:

We did implement keyboard shortcuts to switch tabs. This is activated by
pressing and releasing the ALT key. Not only can you switch tabs with
these key tips, but you can even choose commands that way.



Mapkeys have been designed to work outside the active tab as well as to
switch tabs. So, if you find that you have a command that you use often,
you can record a mapkey for it and it will run regardless of which tab
is active.



Someone mentioned customization of the ribbon. We did implement some
limited customization in Wildfire 5.0, but plan to offer much more
customization capability in Wildfire 6.0.



The ribbon can be minimized to clear up screen space - I think someone
mentioned that as well.



I could probably go on about other specifics, but I really wanted to
point out the thought process behind the UI decision and how it fits in
with a longer term strategy.



Thanks for your time and if anyone has additional comments, feel free to
email me.

Hi Raphael,

Thanks for joining in our discussion and making yourself avaliable. You've pointed out some things that I didn't know was possible and would like to test some of these things out. Could you comment on the show model annotations? It seems that when opening up a drawing created before WF5, there are a lot of model annotations that show up as being erased. Is there an easy way to delete the erased dimensions so the user can show dimensions by feature? Or is there a way to show erased dimensions other than going into the drawing tree and hunting for it view by view? I think the dimensioning is where I am getting the most complaints and after working more with the users I can see there point; it is very hard to find dimensions in many cases.

Thanks again,

Jason

[dgschaefer]

We haven't implemented WF5 here yet, our customers are on WF3 or WF4.
Looking at this issue, I see that I'm going to have a challenge.

We use custom pull down menus for making company wide mapkeys available.
We've found that we can successfully load two config.win files if they
each manipulate different parts of the window. So, company changes go
in the pull down menus, users can change anything else. It works very
well, loading two config.win files without this distinction is
problematic.

This UI is going to push our company mapkeys, which we have a lot of
time invested in (and save us a lot of time as well), off the screen.
Hopefully I can add the instruction to push the pull downs to the left
and up to our company config.win without messing up the user config.win
files.

BTW - I liked how you said that the ribbon would be fully implemented in
WF6. That made me chuckle since we've been told that Pro|E would be rid
of the side menus in the 'next release' since WF1 debuted and they are
still here in WF4. If I was a betting man, I'd bet they still are in
WF5 too.

Doug Schaefer

[RaphaelCNascime]

Hi Olaf,

Thanks for the feedback. Wildfire 5.0 does allow for the menu bar to be
positioned to the left.



Go to the Toolbars tab of the Customize dialog (Tools > Customize
Screen) and you can select the pull-down to position the menu bar on the
left.



While it does break with convention, we positioned it on the right by
default because the pull-down menus tended to overlap and get in the way
of the ribbon tabs. However, because we recognized that some users would
rather keep it in its familiar location, we allow the option of
customizing its location.













Hope this helps,

Raphael







Raphael Nascimento

Product Manager

Pro/ENGINEER Detailing

[RaphaelCNascime]

I forgot to mention that you can record a mapkey that toggles the
Minimize the Ribbon command. It might be even faster to hit a mapkey
than to click a button to toggle the Ribbon.













Raphael Nascimento

Product Manager

Pro/ENGINEER Detailing

[jasonb13]

In Reply to Ken Nunn:

I absolutely agree with Olaf .



cid:235424905@08042010-1711



I would be significantly more productive with this as it offers the best of
all worlds.

Ken...I found how to move the menubar to the left side of the screen, but how did you get the toolbar to go between the menubar and the ribbon?

Thanks,

Jason

[ocorten-2]

That's cool enough (still the toggle button would be more in sync with
the rest of the UI).



And what about the plans to remove the menu bar in a future release?
Will you keep supporting the File, Edit, etc menu's?

[STEVEG]

One other major thing asked by the users is the ability to customize the right-click menu. Any comment on that Raphael?

Steve G

[jflores-3]

Thanks Raphael,

I did use the RMB for customization; it was just a short cut to the
tools customization where as you mentioned customization in WF5 is
pretty much limited. Goo to know about the RMB for icon names.



I played with the ALT and keyboard short cuts a was a bit disappointed
with some of the keys that were used. Did not know they were there
because the titles did not have any underlining to clue me in. I can
see why not; in the case of Annotation none of the letters can be
underlined because none were used for the shortcut because they were
already used elsewhere. Seem like "N" would have been a good choice for
Annotation, if it were not used for Info, that probably should have
used "I" since it is not used elsewhere. Then S could have been used
for Sketch.

* L = Layout

* S = Annotation

* K = Sketch

* U = Publish



Some of the commands themselves will be more difficult to memorize than
need be because some use numbers, some do match well, others are
backward or use a letter not relevant to the name. Some made since and
other did not, in many cases when I hit the key that probably should
have been used and found it was available and left me asking why?



* 1 = Standard dimension

* 2 = Reference Dimension

* SL = Snap Line

* TW = Wrap Text (why not WT to match the name and the way a user
would think of it)

* RO = Rotation







Thank you, Jim Flores

Mech. designer/CAD admin.

Clinical Care Systems

Philips Healthcare

2271 Cosmos Court

Carlsbad, CA. 92011

-

[ptc-2032585]

Hi Raphael

Seeing as you hopped in, we're all going to take advantage of the channel you opened up :)

I asked a while back and it wasn't possible then, but maybe now it is: can you place the dashboard at the bottom yet?

Thanks

Rui



On 08.04.

[jellis]

Regarding using the keyboard shortcuts. I'm finding that when I click the ALT key I see the letter shortcuts. Then click L for Annotation to engage that tab. Why is another click required? I'm finding you have to either click the ALT button again or left click in the graphics screen before thefilter engages to select the desired object.What's the reasoning behind needing another click?

Past releases have taught us to use the Selection Filter. I've noticed the Filter changes options with each Tab selected. Would the User gain from having a small graphic to the left of the Filter selector that would display the Active Tab? With the Filter on the right side of the screen and the Tabs on the Left this might be a useful visual aid for the Filter selector?

I've also noticed that after Saving and Reopening a .drw file the default tab is Layout. Are there any thoughts here about returning to the last active tab when the drw file is opened? I had thought that might be useful only because we use drw templates. If we could save the Templates to the Annotation tab, or other tab, then when the Template is applied a user could start with Dimension Clean Up. My new drw workflow is Create with Template, Clean Up Dimensions, Orient the Views. Whenreopening an existing drw the ribbon tab is forcing the userto check for the appropriate Tab beforeany work can be started.

Kind Regards, Jim

[jflores-3]

Jim,

Can you elaborate a bit more to let us know exactly what your are trying
to do. I've only played with ribbon twice now, not using it in a real
work flow, maybe some else can chime in if I am off base. It sounds
like you are trying to engage the filter to help make a selection in the
middle of your commands. Try making your selection before or after,



Selection before:

* Press and hold ALT while selecting the annotation.

* When ALT is released from the previous command, it will need to
be clicked in order to bring up the shortcut keys.

* Click the S key to activate the annotations tab.

* Click whatever shortcut key(s) are required for the editing you
want to apply. ( I believe whatever filter is required should be active
at this time or a dialog box will be opened requiring your input prior
to making a selection).



Selection after:

* Click the ALT key to bring up the shortcut keys

* Click the S key to activate the annotations tab

* Click whatever shortcut key(s) are required for the editing you
want to apply

* When prompted make your selection.



I find that if I want to edit something I prefer to select it first
(have not tried to ALT select multiples).





Thank you, Jim Flores

Mech. designer/CAD admin.

Clinical Care Systems

Philips Healthcare

2271 Cosmos Court

Carlsbad, CA. 92011

-

[jellis]

In Reply:

I am trying to eval and understand the keyboard shortcuts that have been mentioned. With a drw active.....I click the ALT key...not holding it down to select an object....just single click the ALT key. The Ribbon displays small boxed letters...the shortcuts. When these are displayed I then click L for Layout or B for Table or S for Annotate. The tab changes as desired. Now....I have to either click the Alt button again or left click the graphic screen before I can make any selection of an object.

[jflores-3]

I am in WF2 at the moment so I cannot check, but at the time the tab
changes as desired; is there not another different set of small boxed
letters next to each icon command? I think you are still in ALT mode
and the application is waiting on you for the next command.



If you do not want to execute a command at this time, another click or
ALT is required to get out of this waiting for command mode. I think in
the past one was required to click ALT for each command, now you click
ALT once and it stays active until ALT is clicked again (or mouse is
click elsewhere).



Thank you, Jim Flores

Mech. designer/CAD admin.

Clinical Care Systems

Philips Healthcare

2271 Cosmos Court

Carlsbad, CA. 92011

-

[jellis]

Yes....the interface appears to be waiting for another keystroke. Either another ALT click or screen click clears the lettered shortcuts. I was expecting some consistency. If you click ALT then the F key you get the File menu drop down. At this point you can click the X key to Exit or Select any other option in the File menu. There is no extra clicks required. However....in the Ribbon...you have to make another click or click the ALT key again. Shortcuts are supposed to be productive.....not redundant.

[jflores-3]

Sounds like you are comparing apple to oranges. In your example with
the ribbon you are trying to make an object selection outside of the
ribbon (this does require another click). In your example of the file
menu your are making selections within the file menu (this does not
require another click, as making another selection within the ribbon
also does not require another click).



If you ALT F and then rather than hitting X or any other item within the
file; you decide to select an object on the screen as in you ribbon
example are you not required to input another click or ALT?



Thank you, Jim Flores

Mech. designer/CAD admin.

Clinical Care Systems

Philips Healthcare

2271 Cosmos Court

Carlsbad, CA. 92011

-

[jellis]

I disagree on the "apples to oranges" quote but that's OK.

When you get a chance give it a try. If you click the ALT key the shortcut letters show up. Click the S, B or L key..the tab changes and the interface waits for another letter click. With the shortcut letters displayed you can not make any mouse selection from the Ribbon menus or the graphic screen. You must continue with a shortcut keystroke or click the ALT button again or click the screen before any menu selection or screen selection is permitted. If you use the File menu shortcut....ALT F...you can either continue with a letter click or mouse select.

Raphael opened the door to user input which is what I'm providing. There was dialog earlier about creating Mapkeys for shortcuts and then replies about the shortcuts that exist. I don't want to create Mapkeys if the shortcuts that exist work. I have already found that our Mapkeys, which work fine in WF4,for toggling datum features on/off had to be edited because although they worked in the Model they didn't work on the drw interface. I saw what I believed to be inconsistency in the interface between the Ribbon shortcuts and the other Menu shortcuts.

Regards, Jim

[jflores-3]

Good to know, I try it out next time. I can understand your pain with
extra clicks. One of my pet peeves in WF2 is the favorites folder. When
inserting a table from file I select the favorites folder where I have
folders for tables, 3d notes, etc. After selecting the favorites
folder; rather than opening the favorites folder, you get a "Browse
Favorites" button that must be selected.



Why? It's not like a "you're about to browse the favorites folder, to
continue click yes to cancel click no." You would think that intended
functionality would be bright enough to know that if there is only one
possible option for a user to select; that it should make the select for
the user and not disrupt the flow.



Thank you, Jim Flores

Mech. designer/CAD admin.

Clinical Care Systems

Philips Healthcare

2271 Cosmos Court

Carlsbad, CA. 92011

-

[cdspk]

One of the great strengths of ProE has always been the level of UI customization, a majority of this discussion probably would probably nothave appeared if this had been available in the Detailing UI.

Most of us have a very small set of functions which we use 99% of the time and the rest we accept we have to hunt for on the rare occasions we use them. If this change in interface had included a 'quick access' toolbar as in MS Office it would have been an excellent interface, as it is, it just seems rushed. Adding mouse clicks is rarely a step forward,

Sean

[NormanMelanson]

Try doing any cabling work.... The manuals and tutorial (from PTC university are only due out in June or July....) however I managed to route a network or a cable harness in WF3, is totally different or isn't possible in WF5.0.... Talk about productivity going down the tubes.....

[dustin]

I actually enjoy the ribbon interface for drawings, tho I would admit that it is likely only valuable in the drawing format. I make some fairly large models with many parts. The drawing mode tends to get VERY slow and convulsive. I usually have to change the selection to specify what I am actually trying to get at. The ribbon interface allows me to cycle between sub-modes which I can independently modify the selection state (ie: drawing view in the layout ribbon, annotate in the annotation ribbon, BOM ballon in the table ribbon, etc.). I can then accomplish all my actions associated with that ribbon and then move on to the next ribbon. If I need to return to a prior ribbon, my selection preference is still the same as I left it from the previous visit.

I can see how it would be annoying if one was only working with assemblies with less than say ... 100 parts in it. But for my application ... it is 10x faster and more stable in drawing mode than any of the WF predecessors.

[dustin]

The "quick access" toolbar is not necessary, as you can still put as many extraneous toolbars and commands as you like in addition to the ribbon. I've put up a "save as" and a "print" command in my general toolbar, moved the display toolbars to the right so that I have ready access to all of the menu toolbar (I use the window drop-down menu quite often to switch models / drawings.

In Reply to Sean Kerslake:

One of the great strengths of ProE has always been the level of UI customization, a majority of this discussion probably would probably nothave appeared if this had been available in the Detailing UI.

Most of us have a very small set of functions which we use 99% of the time and the rest we accept we have to hunt for on the rare occasions we use them. If this change in interface had included a 'quick access' toolbar as in MS Office it would have been an excellent interface, as it is, it just seems rushed. Adding mouse clicks is rarely a step forward,

Sean

[jasonb13]

Hi Dustin,

We have had a small increase in un-expected exits since we have gone to WF5 at M030. What release are you on? How many users?

Also in regards to adding icons to the toolbar; I have experiencedicons disappearing after I add them to the tool bar..specifically the close window and erased not displayed icons. They never stay on the toolbar if I move the toolbar between the pull-down menu and the ribbon, and then place the pull-down menu to the left. Do you experience this as well?

In Reply to Dustin Hase:

....and more stable in drawing mode than any of the WF predecessors.

[dustin]

Interesting. We just updated from WF5 F000 to M030 (running XP64) running 2 users. I have not noticed an increase in exits between F000 and M030 (there are some however--most notably when attempting to assign BOM balloons to a view in a very large assembly). However, due to an unrelated issue with exporting to .pdf, we are being forced to run F000 installed in parallel until we can determine the cause.

My statement regarding stability is based our switch from WF3 to WF5 F000. I cannot speak to WF4 however. I spent an hour working on a drw in WF3 with multiple unexpected fails and little progress. After I gave up on WF3, it took less than 20 minutes to finish with one fail regarding the BOM balloons.

I have not noticed the toolbar issues you mention however. I've found them to be very stable as long as I don't let WF3 mess with them (I have WF3, WF5 F000, and WFM030 installed in parallel dirs). I used to have a similar issue in either WF1 or WF3, tho I cannot remember which.

Hi Dustin,

We have had a small increase in un-expected exits since we have gone to WF5 at M030. What release are you on? How many users?