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agaribay1-Visitor
1-Visitor
January 24, 2013
Question

“…dimensions not shown on drawing are controlled by 3D CAD File…”

  • January 24, 2013
  • 17 replies
  • 25901 views
Hey guys,

What is a standard drawing note you would use for complex models that require the 3D Model to complete the drawing?


Something like:

“…dimensions not shown on drawing are controlled by 3D CAD File…”

Thanks.

-Art

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17 replies

P
pfariello1-Visitor
1-Visitor
January 24, 2013
Interesting question. I have been struggling with company drawing standards which are requiring all parts to be "fully" dimensioned on the print. I personally feel this is impractical if not impossible for many injection molded or die cast parts that have any type of free form surfacing.

I would be interested if anyone works under the premise of a "fully" dimensioned print and if it is acceptable to reference the database to confirm or measure feature size.



ALL NOMINAL PART GEOMETRY IS DEFINED BY THE PRO/ENGINEER DATABASE. ALL
FEATURES NOT DIMENSIONED SHALL BE REFERENCED FROM THE PRO/ENGINEER DATABASE.
ALL POINTS IN THE DATABASE MUST BE HELD TO THE LINEAR TOLERANCE SHOWN IN THE
TOLERANCE TABLE ON THIS DOCUMENT.

Regards,
Patrick Fariello
CommScope
1300 E. Lookout Dr. Suite 150
Richardson, TX 75082
J
JoseResendis6-Contributor
6-Contributor
January 24, 2013
Hi Patrick,

Similar to your note below, the notes on our "Limited Dimension Drawings"
reference an internal tolerance spec doc in addition to the note that
points to the cad file.

Best Regards,

Jose M. Resendis
Mechanical & Optical Engineering Center (MOEC)
Raytheon - Space & Airborne Systems (SAS)
972-344-2555 office
972-979-5525 cell

"Great execution requires discipline"


P
ptc-1412741-Visitor
1-Visitor
January 24, 2013
This is what we use for what we call “virtual drawings”. We will generally dimension holes for hardware, and anything we consider critical / want inspected.

~Doug



&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

3. TOLERANCE ON ALL UNDIMENSIONED FEATURES
SHALL BE: Profile Symbol | .010 | A | B | C |

3.1 TOLERANCE OF ALL DIMENSIONED
FEATURES SHALL DEFAULT TO TOLERANCE
BLOCK UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED.
3.2 DEFINITION OF ALL UNDIMENSIONED
FEATURES SHALL BE PER ELECTRONIC
DATA FILE: md_xxx-yyyyyy-zzzz_-.
THE 10 CHARACTERS FOLLOWING "md_" REPRESENT
THE PART NO., THE NEXT 5 CHARACTERS
REPRESENT THE CONFIGURATION, AND THE LAST
CHARACTER (OR LAST 2 CHARACTERS) REPRESENTS
THE REVISION OF THE DATA FILE AND DRAWING.
3.3 DIMENSIONED FEATURES TAKE PRECEDENCE
OVER THE ELECTRONIC DATA FILE.
3.4 THE REVISION OF THE DRAWING AND
THE ELECTRONIC DATA FILE SHALL BE
THE SAME.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

J
jflores-31-Visitor
1-Visitor
January 24, 2013
We do pretty much the same, only dimension interfaces and design requirement critical features as well as when required add a dimension here and there to statistically monitor the process. Our model note is kind of simple:

ASSOCIATED ELECTRONIC DATA SET &model_name WITH SAME REVISION
AS THE DRAWING FORMS A PART OF THIS DOCUMENT IN THE EVENT OF A
CONFLICT, THE ELECTRONIC DATA SET SHALL TAKE PRECEDENCE.


Thank you, Jim Flores
Mechanical Designer / CAD administrator
Sustaining Engrg, Philips Healthcare, PCCI
Hospital Respiratory Care
2271 Cosmos Court
Carlsbad, CA. 92011
-<">mailto:->
P
pfariello1-Visitor
1-Visitor
January 24, 2013
A few more questions,

On either the "Limited Dimension Drawing" or the "virtual drawing", how are these drawings used? Is it acceptable to release for production?

If there was a discrepancy on a delivered piece part where the feature was not explicitly dimensioned on the print, is it acceptable to use the database as the reference to show the discrepancy?


Thanks,
Patrick Fariello

-<blocked::<a style="COLOR:" blue;=" text-decoration:=" underline&quot;=" target="_BLANK" href="mailto:-">">mailto:->
J
JoseResendis6-Contributor
6-Contributor
January 24, 2013
Since the drawing states that dimensions not shown on the print are derived
from the cad data file, You then
use the cad file to settle any discrepancies. As for whether its
acceptable for production would depend on
your supplier's capabilities. The majority of shops are using the cad data
for producing parts these days
even if they take a translated version of your native cad file and generate
an in house drawing for their needs, they
are still using your model.



Best Regards,

Jose M. Resendis
Mechanical & Optical Engineering Center (MOEC)
Raytheon - Space & Airborne Systems (SAS)
972-344-2555 office
972-979-5525 cell

"Great execution requires discipline"


D
DamianCastillo1-Visitor
1-Visitor
January 25, 2013

This is a very interesting topic.


In some cases our drawings are the only documentation we can send to production and in other cases we can send the model and the parts are made by CNC. When you are dealing with complex geometry, it is difficult to fully dimension the drawings which poses a problem in some cases.


If the drawing is approved and has a signature, how do you determine if all dimensions were looked at when the decision was made? If the drawing does not contain all the dimensions to define the product, how do you insure the model was analysed during the approval process?


Some have suggested using GD&T which has a Surface call out that will let you point to a complex surface and state that surface must be within a particular tolerance range of that shape to be acceptable. Now the question is, how do you measure it and how do you document it was done correctly when approving the drawings?


This is a challenge for us as well and we are trying to find the most realistic approach that defines the product without having to create many cross sections to define complex geometry areas.


We don't officially use the 3D Drawing standard and do not annotate our 3D models but this seems to also be an option. The problem we have is that in some instances we can only provide a 2D Drawing for production and not a 3D model.


I would love to get some feedback and ideas from others about this.


"Too many people walk around like Clark Kent, because they don't realize they can Fly like Superman"

B
Brndn_41-Visitor
1-Visitor
January 25, 2013

I'm not really savvy with inspection, but can't you inspect the physical part with CMM and directly compare it to a model? We use FARO tools here depending upon need. I don't know the details, but it seems to suffice for complicated profiles that would otherwise require point sets and sections with tolerancing. I think some of our vendors do it as well since they use neutral files for machining.


In Reply to Damian Castillo:



This is a very interesting topic.


In some cases our drawings are the only documentation we can send to production and in other cases we can send the model and the parts are made by CNC. When you are dealing with complex geometry, it is difficult to fully dimension the drawings which poses a problem in some cases.


If the drawing is approved and has a signature, how do you determine if all dimensions were looked at when the decision was made? If the drawing does not contain all the dimensions to define the product, how do you insure the model was analysed during the approval process?


Some have suggested using GD&T which has a Surface call out that will let you point to a complex surface and state that surface must be within a particular tolerance range of that shape to be acceptable. Now the question is, how do you measure it and how do you document it was done correctly when approving the drawings?


This is a challenge for us as well and we are trying to find the most realistic approach that defines the product without having to create many cross sections to define complex geometry areas.


We don't officially use the 3D Drawing standard and do not annotate our 3D models but this seems to also be an option. The problem we have is that in some instances we can only provide a 2D Drawing for production and not a 3D model.


I would love to get some feedback and ideas from others about this.


"Too many people walk around like Clark Kent, because they don't realize they can Fly like Superman"


D
DarrinHiebert1-Visitor
1-Visitor
January 25, 2013
I haven't been following this topic faithfully, but today for some reason,
it caught my eye, maybe because I'm too busy learning WindChill. 😉



We do something very similar to what the other posters have said, we have
a note that says something like this:



ALL FEATURES NOT SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED OR DETAILED ARE CONTROLLED BY CAD
GEOMETRY.



I don't know that this really "does" anything for us, but it definitely
makes us feel good!



To Damian's question, however. One way that we "control" this is with
CMM. It's not really control per se, but it is a way for us to verify
that the shape is what we want. With that being said, we have features or
areas on parts that we cannot accurately measure with our CMM vs. the
model. Fortunately, for us, those unmeasurable areas are not critical to
fit, form or function, so we don't measure them.



With all of that being said, we always dimension those areas that ARE
criticial for form, fit, function, or location, and sometimes, those are
NOT easy to detail on prints.


M
mlocascio1-Visitor
1-Visitor
January 25, 2013
I am not sure about the origin of this stream either, but I will put in my
plug for using the model the way that Pro/E intended the model to be used. I
just came from an environment where it seemed like models were only good for
one thing - adding dimensions. I am a strong advocate for making the model
reflect what is desired for manufacturing. When done right this means that
any change that I want done in a model can be done in the drawing and visa
versa. The only time that we as Pro/E users should add dimensions is when
there is no other way to describe the geometry in question.



It's kind of a simple principle, my fellow Pro/E users, we are using Pro/E,
not AutoCAD. If you want to produce AutoCAD quality drawings there are much
cheaper ways to do that. Use Pro/E as it was intended to be used. It makes
it easier for those who have to work with your stuff later.



Michael P. Locascio


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