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bukaj.lesyk1-Visitor
1-Visitor
February 2, 2011
Question

CAD is OK, but CAM is not a CAM

  • February 2, 2011
  • 21 replies
  • 23814 views

Dear PTC CEO and programers.
Deae PROE FANS

I wrote this to the PTC, but no response.

Forward message>

I am using PROE WF5 PRO/nc as cad/cam system
CAD is OK I like it.
BUT!!! CAM-PRO/NC is not a CAM. When you make something new it is 80% buttons an menus, but engine is the same all the time.You are making olny small changes. Your "CAM" can not compute toolpaths on backround (multitasking)It is not using multiple core technology, I am siting on my chair an waiting for hours. (I have XEON64bit 8GB RAM HP Z400) So wake up PTC. You have a lot of bugs in your "CAM" I am not your employe tester. Bugs are in re-rough, Rough, Finishing, Profile, local mill and surface steps. There are bugs and engine is not good too.
I am using EDGECAM too. If you will sleep, I will throw proe away.(to the recycle bin)

Sorry for my english. It is bad, but it is better then then your "CAM"
You have two options
1.new engine for PRO/NC
2.integrate pro/toolmaker in pro/nc

Bukaj

    21 replies

    J
    JoseCoronado15-Moonstone
    15-Moonstone
    February 2, 2011
    Bukaj, tks for your feedback. We are doing a massive revamp in the MFG
    UI, is true. That was a main concern for many customers in the past,
    that's why we are doing the UI modernization projects. In other hand, in
    the very next release you will see some Pro/Toolmaker functionality
    inside Creo NC... and more to follow, we are aiming to integrate most of
    the Pro/TM technology into Creo NC.



    Regards

    Jose Coronado

    Creo NC Product Manager


    D
    DanielSantos1-Visitor
    1-Visitor
    February 2, 2011
    Bukaj,

    Yes, we all know the cons of Pro/NC when it comes to usability. However, a few systems in the market can deliver the same capabilities when it comes to customization and power. Right now I'm training people here to pass custom CL commands to the post-processor using data defined within a note in the 3D model of the tool. Once is done, the programmer will never have to worry again about inserting special CL commands in the Customize window in order to trigger a particular event in the post that is associated with that tool, specifically. We can also pre-define machining parameters in the tool model and every time you pick that tool to create a new sequence, parameters like TOOL_ORIENTATION, OUTPUT_POINT, SPINDLE_DIR, COOLANT_PRESSURE or whatever I want are populated automatically in the NC-sequence... this is the so called UDP parameters...

    I can also create relations within families of tools to compute the RPM and feedrate based on the # of teeth of the CUTTER_DIAM of each instance, and they also populated automatically for me... if I change one instance of the tool for another, then the feeds&speeds are also updated automatically because you can use relations on you site files...

    So, why I'm saying all this: it is because Pro/NC delivers a lot of power, and I don't know any system that can do what I stated above: Nor NX or CATIA or anything else. And trust me, you can make miracles with these things... yes, I could write a list with all crap... but I prefer to focus on what get the job done... Here goes another: Pro/NC MUDFs are the best thing for me, although they need more improvements, I could not reach all their potential yet... and probably I won't, in this life...

    The big issue with Pro/NC is its usability, and UI. The tool manager sucks more than anything else, but as one of the customers José mentioned below, I can guarantee you that PTC is listening and they are working to fix their mess. We won't see everything fixed in the the first release of Creo, but we will see it, I'm sure. Otherwise, Pro/NC will be extinct in a few years. PTC knows that and now they have the right time and the right people to make it happen.

    Just, to give you an idea about how things are changing, a few years ago you would never get, in this place, a reply from the NC Solutions product manager with a post like that...

    Many of the issues people have with Pro/NC are caused by the cumbersome and outdated documentation, non-intuitive workflow and lack of real life examples in PTC training material and PTCU. They don't have real life NC programmers working for them. So, I'd like to suggest you to visit this place more often, drop your questions (Politely please ;->) and perhaps you can learn some tips here that will make your life easier... Yes, many of us understand your pain, but Pro/NC deserves a last chance I think... We also have HPZ800 (8 cores) and Pro/NC cannot use them very well... but keep in mind that Pro/NC has the ability to use multi-core and remote computing for more than 10 years, something that is only avaliable in the last 3/4 years... I think Pro/NC was really ahead of many systems a decade ago... but PTC slowed down at some point and they lost the track... but sit tight because they will come back... well, at least I believe so... ;->

    Welcome to the board... it will be a pleasure to serve you...

    Best regards,

    Daniel




    H
    hheinze11-Garnet
    11-Garnet
    August 19, 2024

    You wrote

    @DanielSantos wrote:
    Bukaj,

    ...
    Many of the issues people have with Pro/NC are caused by the cumbersome and outdated documentation, non-intuitive workflow and lack of real life examples in PTC training material and PTCU. They don't have real life NC programmers working for them. So, I'd like to suggest you to visit this place more often, drop your questions (Politely please ;->) and perhaps you can learn some tips here that will make your life easier... Yes, many of us understand your pain, but Pro/NC deserves a last chance I think...
    ...

    Best regards,

    Daniel

     Haha, you are totally right, but those Problems still exists. They are even relying more than ever on the community and do not answer any questions anymore.

    And if, for sure it will only be fixed for future releases..

     

    P
    ptc-19327451-Visitor
    1-Visitor
    February 2, 2011
    Dan, how exactly did you learn to apply the advanced features to Pro N/C?

    Who is your VAR? , or who did you get training from and how much did it cost?

    How long did it take to implement?







    Christopher F. Gosnell



    FPD Company

    124 Hidden Valley Road

    McMurray, PA 15317

    PH:724.941-5540

    FX:724.941.8322

    www.fpdcompany.com
    P
    ptc-5963181-Visitor
    1-Visitor
    February 2, 2011
    Dan,

    I can see where someone would be negative about Pro/Mfg. Lack of understanding
    the system. It is always difficult to go from one system to the other,
    especially when you are used to one for so many years. Most of them do the same
    thing. It is at times different terminology and Icons/buttons are different. I
    do have to say that out of the box it is not as easy to use. I also see that if
    ProE or Pro/Nc is not properly setup it is a not easy to use.

    It all comes down to implementation. I think the power is right there!! I have
    been using Pro/Mfg since Rev 9 and I have seen big improvements in the module. I
    have been using other cam packages before (Mastercam, Surfcam).

    We have set up a lot of templates and or start parts. Same with Tooling. We put
    every parameter that is ask for into the tooling model. We have also set up
    pro-program to automate things. A lot of things are relations driven.

    Example: You need to tap a hole. You know a few things, that you need a spot,
    drill, and tap and you know the size. A couple of mouse clicks or a map-key and
    the only thing you need to do is pick the drill group and coordinate system you
    are done.

    I do have to say a lot of it also depends on how good the model is!!

    Not to mention when you create setup/books. Templates!!

    Tony Jager

    655 Cedar Street
    San Carlos, CA 94070
    650-868-1810





    K
    kevin_marett1-Visitor
    1-Visitor
    February 2, 2011
    I have used Pro/NC for 15 years in the manufacture of mould tools, I have
    also worked as an AE for a VAR gaining extensive knowledge from PTC. I have
    to admit that Pro/NC has had very little changes in its core over that time
    period, in comparison to other products in the market. Yes the UI is being
    updated but I have to agree in part with what Dan is saying.



    Things like gouge avoidance, the need for gouge checking at all, the
    calculation time are issues carried forward from the core engine. We also
    run Delcam in the shop which seems billet proof when it comes to gouge
    avoidance, it does lack Pro/NC’s ability to control what you are machining
    and how you machine it and it often will roll sharp corners or leave a cusp
    on the corner.


    Yes Pro/NC has an awesome amount of power, outputs a constant high quality
    tool path and has the ability to machine in a large variety of ways but it
    is still the same engine.

    Regards
    Kevin

      K
      kevin_marett1-Visitor
      1-Visitor
      February 2, 2011
      Opps forgot to mention.

      Dan Pro/NC can background process, send the calculation to another computer
      or server and, in gouge checking, can utilise multiple cores and processors.

      D
      DanielSantos1-Visitor
      1-Visitor
      February 2, 2011
      tony,

      We also do crazy stuff with templates here and I can tell you that the
      level of automation of the clamping elements we have is hard the be
      obtained in other systems... I can change the steadyrestmodel of a MillTurn machine
      andits clamping diameter and location with 5 clicks... but all this
      level took me half year to be created...

      So, Pro/NC is all about customization, yes... but not every company can
      afford to have the right people and time to deploy a system like that,
      specially during a financial crisis in MFG everywhere... the perfect
      deal with Pro/NC will be the day a user can buy it and start to get good
      toolpaths just reading the documentation, like in Mastercam, Solidcam or
      mid-end systems... if PTC cannot make it easy to use, it is not worth
      either... day after day, the new generation of machinists and engineers
      are becoming less tolerant to cumbersome software...

      But as you said, many people blame Pro/NC before realizing they have bad
      designing practices (model not good), lack of discipline to use the
      software (everyday they want to do exactly the same in a different way
      and get frustrated when it does not work...) and do not follow
      check-lists for both MFG and CAD tasks... so the designer leaves lots of
      geometry checks in the model and create models in relative accuracy,
      then the programmer get tons of unexpected exits and material removal
      failures... and he blames Pro/NC solely... when in fact there are bad
      modeling practices...

      Today I heard a colleague here saying one thing that fits
      perfectly to the current MFG package PTC markets: "I find the software
      heavy on theory and short on practice. It seems like the pieces are
      there, but the 'glue' is missing." - He is 1000% right. But I still
      believing PTC needs a new chance, and Creo is this chance.

      Time will say... but I believe that if they work hard and do not attempt
      to fool us with a few new icons that still hidding UNIX menus, they will
      succeed...

      Daniel
      D
      dbrainsky1-Visitor
      1-Visitor
      February 2, 2011
      Chris,

      I too have been using proNC since version 11 and agree with all that has been
      written within these emails. I just would like to add that PTC provides tips and
      techniques forProNC. One such technique applies to automation.Here isthe link
      to thistechnique.

      B
      bukaj.lesyk1-VisitorAuthor
      1-Visitor
      February 3, 2011

      >>>but keep in mind that Pro/NC has the ability to use multi-core and remote computing for more than 10 years, something that is only avaliable in the last3/4 years.

      Yes, it is true, but you must have more than one licence! I have only one licence. So I can not start another proe on behind. Job manager does not work when you have only one licence.

      (Am I right?)

      Bukaj

      D
      DanielSantos1-Visitor
      1-Visitor
      February 3, 2011
      Yes Bukaj, you are right in regards the Job Manager licensing...

      As I said before, I believe PTC had lots of innovation in their product
      back 10-15 years ago... they were one of the first companies to research
      HSM toolpaths and they have patents about it... but today, what they got
      is outdated... looks like everybody else improved and re-designed their
      HSM algorithms and Pro/NC ones are now a baby in his first weeks... PTC as
      the great marketer it is, still advertising about their 11 old HSM
      technology and its patents... what a lot of tosh... there is no
      status-quo in technology gentleman...

      HSMWorks, a Danish CAM Integrator for Solidworks created a few years ago
      a new HSM kernel written from zero, with extensive support 4/8 cores
      very well... they designed the software in a partnership with HP back
      then... the nice thing on this piece of software is that they have a
      distributed CAM services manager which you can install on one or more
      PC's on your local area network to enable automatic distribution of CAM
      calculations (Even the secretary's machine), and when these machines are
      idle or making a low usage of the processor (Like editing a doc in
      MS-Word) your HSMWorks seat will search for machines running this
      service and distribute the computation of the job for you.

      This is a great deal of innovation, because even with everybody else
      adding multi-core support on their CAM systems these days, these Danes
      went a step ahead and added something that made them unique so far. In
      my humble opinion, PTC is not a CAM leader anymore. At the best, they
      are followers. You don't see PTC putting things before other companies.
      They use to put it years after someone in the market because we push
      them to do it... not to mention the time PTC used to charge customers to
      develop stuff, like custom cycle functionality... there is not room for
      these practices anymore...

      Last year Delcam passed PTC in CAM revenues according to CIMData... that
      was the first time in years that it happened... 2011, it will be even
      harder for the CAM revenue leaders... (and great for us, customers) the
      CAM market is boiling... U.S. has a MFG crisis and companies will look
      for new systems to be more productive and extract all the potential of
      their machines, otherwise they will close their doors and new doors will
      be opened in China... it's a matter of survival now, small/medium
      companies like Solidcam, HSMWorks, Delcam, OpenMind Tech are re-writing
      the future of CAM... Siemens PLM and Dassault are also doing their
      homework... so I believe the market will say... how it is possible that
      PTC still linearizing helix entry in Volume machining or generating
      thousands of tiny points in a ramp move? Their toolpaths are outdated
      and do not reflect the reality of the modern CNC controls...

      I find Pro/NC a robust product and very capable, and with
      functionalities like those shown in the automation webcast David
      suggested, you can make very nice things... but it's not easy to
      implement those things in a global level when engineers are working from
      UK, USA, Singapore, Norway, Brazil, all them connected via Windchill
      technology... every site has their own machines and methods, people, so
      I can put a great deal of automation in a MUDF and extract this as
      annotation features, but perhaps my colleague in UK will not like the
      tool set and speeds&feeds I used, or he can't use that on his
      machines... so it's great, but hard to fully apply on big companies...
      requires lots of discipline and seamless integration with engineering
      practices.

      The good thing is that PTC bought NCGraphics some years ago and the guy
      in charge of Pro/NC today was the product manager of Pro/Toolmaker.. so
      he knows this thing inside out... the good thing about this acquisition
      is that NCGraphics technology is licensed in many products in the
      industry, like Mastercam, Depocam, Visi... so these guys knows what
      needs to be (re)done... we are eager to see this technology inside
      Pro/NC, and that hopefully PTC can re-write their 20 years old code
      using modern programming tools focusing in the 64 bits hardware and true
      multi-core support (without charging you for an extra license like
      today).

      I'm not sure if PTC will be able to break this repetitive cycle of not
      being able to deliver fast paced innovation in CAM... I don't know how
      much attention (Read money for R&D) CAM gets from the big fishes at PTC
      or if they are really prepared to fight in this modern CAM market, but
      I'm hopeful that CREO will also bring integrated CAM companies to
      develop for PTC plattaform, and if Pro/NC do not evolve as we need it to
      do, then we can get fast, fancy and powerful CAM systems to run inside
      our CAD platform: Pro/E (Creo). One way or another, the market will
      dictate PTC future, and it's up to them to do their homework with Creo.

      Anyway, in big engineering environments like ours, it's important to
      work with PTC to make the software better and to keep it as our global
      solution, because of the many benefits of the full associativity with
      the CAD model. And that's why I believe PTC deserves a last opportunity
      to revamp Pro/NC, because PTC software as a whole also brought us many
      good moments in our history.

      JM2C

      Daniel






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