Skip to main content
12-Amethyst
September 21, 2010
Question

Why is Mathcad so Keen on Units?

Find out from Mike Baldani why unit handling is such an important part of Mathcad’s product strategy.

The Mathcad blog - http://bit.ly/aOP02c

59 replies

19-Tanzanite
September 21, 2010

See paragraph two:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

They were lucky.

See paragraph two:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter

They were not so lucky!

Translate
1-Visitor
September 21, 2010

I flew several times with pilot Quintal.

A super-champion landing smooooooooth.

Translate
1-Visitor
September 21, 2010

Unfortunately, for many users, it's the only thing that Mathcad still has that makes it worthwhile keeping. There have been several forays by various putative contenders such as Wolfram's Calculation Center and SMath Studio. The former is no longer extant, but the latter is gaining in popularity, but its user interface is quite clunky.

TTFN

Translate
1-Visitor
September 21, 2010

>The truth is, most engineers know their units. They know what unit system they use, what conversion factors are, and how to properly balance the units. In fact, they know this so well that they don’t have to think about it.<

______________________________

This is more than true on the basis that the "Application Engineer" just need to convert beforehand and use the designed formula unitless [a pure scalars]. Old Engineers design their formulas and particularly some of the governing coefficients, they design "paper pencil". For your own curiosity, open the Mathcad 8 example about the "glorious unit system" and tell me what you units you get for the Reynolds number !

Translate
19-Tanzanite
September 21, 2010

In fact, they know this so well that they don’t have to think about it.

That's exactly what the engineer(s) for the Climate Orbiter said. Then a $330M spacecraft crashed into Mars. Oops!

Translate
1-Visitor
September 22, 2010

OK, Richard !

I refrain more comments, but Eden did in other words:

A unit system must have a "Murphy's law peephole" [jmG]

Translate
1-Visitor
September 22, 2010

BostonDan wrote:

Find out from Mike Baldani why unit handling is such an important part of Mathcad’s product strategy.

The Mathcad blog - http://bit.ly/aOP02c

Dan,

Mathcads unit handling is one of the main attributes which makes us engineers choose it.

It's a fantastic way to trace errors and a good way to learn the unit conversions.

Mike

Translate
1-Visitor
September 22, 2010

Absolutely.

Without units it's simply accountancy, and you see the problems thay have had with the conversion factor between 'money' and value.

MathCad doe need to take a lead on the inclusion (making available) of Angles units. It would also solve PTC's problems in Pro/e with the Torque/work confusion.

Philip

Translate
1-Visitor
September 22, 2010

Philip Oakley wrote:

Absolutely.

Without units it's simply accountancy, and you see the problems thay have had with the conversion factor between 'money' and value.

MathCad doe need to take a lead on the inclusion (making available) of Angles units. It would also solve PTC's problems in Pro/e with the Torque/work confusion.

Philip

The angle unit is "radian" and that will not change, especially results from symbolic. True that some results might need conversions like demonstrated in the recent "Cannonball" contest. Are you suggesting that the mathematicians before Mathcad were illiterate and should have lived longer ?

Translate
1-Visitor
September 22, 2010

... the other aspect of the reality is the advanced use of Mathcad

that can't support units while within Engineering works,

"must be unitless". Lot of projects had to be converted "unitless".

Maths are scalar and unitless and existed before Mathcad.

MCADunit_0.gif

The Reynolds number is unitless. So, the Mathcad unit system fails.

The doctoring here is to apply a "reverse unit system" otherwise

some disastrous result might be expected. My orifice bore diameter metering

plate in a 12 " pipe can't be needle size neither as big as earth diameter.

My slide rules don't sing a song. This example "Reynolds number" is extracted

from Mathcad qs .

Translate
1-Visitor
September 22, 2010

Jean,

See attached image.

Mike

Translate
1-Visitor
September 22, 2010

MIke Armstrong wrote:

Jean,

See attached image.

Mike

Yes Mike, I see the image but it does not cut the mustard.

Re is not calculated so directly in flow metering sizing. DH has not landed on earth yet ? You pass me something so superfluous in my Engineering Discipline that you didn't notice the missing "DH" . The last cross check can't be checked in Mathcad, Mathcad does not have any "Flow rate" unit ! In flow metering, Re depends upon Q and vice versa , Q depends also from other factors depending upon Q . The work is multiple iterative, that's why the Re is not what you give. And that is again my irreversible point "you must know what you are doing", not sure: ask the old wolf. My recollection fails if "MassBal" [used for piping and pump sizing] had units in the mid 80's, we were mostly meeting with more conclusive facts like pipe size and pressure requirements with results hand written.

Jean.

Translate
1-Visitor
September 22, 2010

Dan,

Kind of can of worms the units in Engineering, an endless war flames in the former Akiva. You can collect one of the work sheet used in Process Control & Instrumentation, I have more but will limit my intrusion in order not to detract other collabs preference. The best guide line is the applicable standard, having in mind the traceability, the project checkers and their nasty comments ... [Rejected, wrong calculations, not conform, not sourced ...] . I will repost this work sheet under a new thread to be recoverable for visitors.

Jean

Translate
17-Peridot
September 22, 2010

Hi BostonDan,

"---most engineers know their units..."

This is only partially true. Knowing your units is more than a convenient agreement; it is a powerful reality check as well.

My collegues and me agree on that the raison d'etre for MathCad is the automatic unit-checking and the simplicity of reading equations. Take away the unit check and I have only 50% of my impetus left for keeping it in use.

I know there are some guys wishing that units were a thing of the past in MathCad, but they seem to be "pure" mathematicians. For the benefit of me and my kin, i.e. engineers, who'll happily keep on tainting scalars with units, MathCad without units would be only a "prettier" Excel.

Raiko

Translate
1-Visitor
September 22, 2010

The problem is more about learning what to qualify and quantify and be able to answer your own questions and be expert in your design, rather than trusting Mathcad that executes garbage-in = garbage-out. If Mathcad is your last resort, like your "supervisor", what do you do next door if your next employer does not have Mathcad and does not want Mathcad because he his fully approved and audited otherwise [like a partnership with some institution running on main frames that don't have unit systems, DOS ... etc ?]. Can you see my point besides your "Mathcad certitude & trustfulness" ?

Translate
19-Tanzanite
September 22, 2010

Can you see my point ?

No. The fact that a task could be accomplished without a particular tool or that the tool may not be available in the future are lousy reasons to not use it when it is available and makes the task easier and the results more reliable.

Translate
1-Visitor
September 23, 2010

Dan,

I will leave this thread with the attached Mathcad QS.

It is sourced and untouched by myself except for :

1. Yellow & green

2. The note below the brown line.

Please read this note carefully. It introduces to

understanding more about designing and using

a unit system, no matter the software, though

it particularizes Mathcad in the context.

It might behave differently in versions above 11.

Don't hesitate for more questions ... etc.

MCADunit_0.gif

Jean

Translate
12-Amethyst
September 23, 2010

Hi Jean. In your attach (hcvacrat.mcd) the density rho (equal to mass by volume) is defined with units of specific weight (equal to rho times g). The formula for evaluating Reinold's number needs the density, which is an intensive propertie. Correcting the unit lbf by lb in the definition of rho gives the correct result for Re, this is, unitless, or, better say, dimension-less.

Regards. Alvaro.

Translate
1-Visitor
September 23, 2010

AlvaroDíaz wrote:

Correcting the unit lbf by lb

Definately shows the need for not only proper units and their dimensions, but also a shift to the metric SI system which ahs taken the time to reduce many of these mistaken applications because it uses distinct names. SI metric still isn't perfect (can it ever be? Philosphical Q101), it needs to resolve the missing Angle dimesion, and it needs to resolve the missing "Things being counted" in Hz. Tom Gutman pointed that problem out on the collaboratory in one of the previous units round table sessions. [when it was cycles per second, one knew it was cycles being counted, now the 'cycle' part is missing!]

Philip

See attached for my Angles proposal from last year

Translate
1-Visitor
September 24, 2010

Just one correction to Mr. Baldani's missive. The units error problem was not directly a consequence of "NASA engineers" using the wrong units; it was a problem with their subcontractor Lockheed Martin. While most of the articles appear to me to be whitewashing the problem, the Lockheed Martin team had to have gotten a requirements document specifying SI units instead of US customary units, particularly in this day and age.

What the NASA engineers did fail at was to verify compliance of the Lockheed Martin interface requirements specification (IRS) and interface data description (IDD) to the NASA team's own IRS and IDD.

While there's been much todo about XML implementations of IRS and IDD documents, they all fail short in the area of compliance testing. In fact, it's not uncommon for so-called "one-team" implementors to have incompatible versions of the almost identical XML documents.

In my mind, it's not a units issue at all, particularly given the other missteps taken by the NASA team, to wit, failure to follow up on numerous course corrections during the flight that would have identified flight control errors arising from the units problem, as well as ignoring the final approach position error that should have at least raised a pink flag that there might be a problem.

TTFN

Translate
12-Amethyst
September 28, 2010

I see that the original question remains "unanswered", at least, in the Dan concept. I go to try to answer it.

In words of Mike Baldani the key is " ... Mathcad’s unit handling is more than a convenience for engineers. It benefits collaboration and cross-organizational processes." That´s more true thinking in enterprises with the home in europe but agencies in america (and not only EUA, México too) or viceversa. Or it's true also with an isolated engineering using an equipament with specifications in a unit system which is not natural for him.

Why? Because " ... most engineers know their units. They know what unit system they use, what conversion factors are, and how to properly balance the units. In fact, they know this so well that they don’t have to think about it." Yes, but also because we need to use the common sense to check any result before remark it as a possible answer. To do it is a must handling the unit system in which we know the normal values. For example, I'm comfortable with results in Celsius, but have not idea about what meaning a value in Rankine scale. I must to make the conversion to be sure that the value fails into my experience of the "normal" values.

So, this is my idea about why mathcad is a very good tool for the diary engineering practice.

But, what about the other softwares? Maybe Mathcad isn't the best tool for the very old two things:

  1. 1) find the answer for a problem.
  2. showing to another this result in a way that
    1. the other guy understand
    2. the answer is self demonstrated as valid, just because I can make mistakes

Excel have a native unit converter in Analysis ToolPak. After enabling it in the addins menu, the function is CONVERT(value, unit_from, unit_to). A discussion about why is better handling units with Mathcad than with excel is, then, reduce to why is better, in general therms, with Mathcad.

Maple have also a unit package; including in version VR4. But isn't very usefull, and I don't know nobody else that use it, with the probably exception of me (acutally, I use it, but inside mathcad 11!).

Mathematica have also a unit package, but it is minimal. Actually I wrote one with some very nice features: http://library.wolfram.com/infocenter/MathSource/5511/. But the problem is when the calculations turns more complex, like integrals or differential equations, turining the unit handling in a problem more haredest that the normal unit checking. Simplification with rules inside objects that have units can turns in an obstacle run, where obstacles finally are always redundance problems.

Matlab have some few packages for handling units, but are very basics. Derive have also some definitions, but, again, can be treated as packages.

So, Mathcad isn't only a good package to complete the taskes enumerated above, is also the best, and the best by a long difference.

Regards. Alvaro.

Translate
1-Visitor
September 28, 2010

AlvaroDíaz wrote:

But, what about the other softwares? Maybe Mathcad isn't the best tool for the very old two things:

  1. 1) find the answer for a problem.
  2. showing to another this result in a way that
    1. the other guy understand
    2. the answer is self demonstrated as valid, just because I can make mistakes

One of the very first things that attracted me to Mathcad was the appearance of the finished sheet; it looks like a page from a mathematics text with integrals, summations and others appearing as if I wrote the expression out by hand (except neater.) Thus, someone familiar with the engineering math (M c/I for flexural stress, for example) can follow the logic flow of my work without needing to learn a new programming language. (Okay, they may need to have range variables explained; but they already know what a vector cross product is.)

The second thing that makes Mathcad so valuable (to me) is units and unit checking. NO, I DON'T MEAN SUC!! In this thread JmG posted an example that resulted in a Reynolds Number that was not unitless. Several unit advocates pointed out that this signified an error in the sheet. (Jean was using it as an argument for not using units.) When the result of one of my calculations doesn't have the proper units it's a red flare that there's either something wrong or something I don't understand about the math.

One of my major gripes (and a source of many errors and much heartache) is that differential equation solvers don't handle units.

A mathcad sheet with the math appearing as if I wrote it and the answer appearing in the units of choice IS the best tool for having someone else understand my work (that I've found so far.)

Translate