22-Sapphire II

Question

So, here's a question to PTC:

Forum|Forum|14 years ago
January 12, 2012
30 replies
14452 views

How come, especially in the modeling section here, most of these great solutions for geometry creation come from us, the very experienced customers, instead of from PTC? I know most times in the past, when at training, when we asked questions about problems in the real world, almost always the trainer, who was fresh out of college (and very sharply dressed, I might add), couldn't answer them. They knew the canned demo/training, but seemed to lack experience.

Many times over the years I'd applied for jobs at PTC that I KNEW I'd be a perfect fit for.....only to be ignored. Yes, I lack the 4-yr degree, but I'll challenge any of them to create the geometry I can. From what I see here, PTC should hire some of us, at least as consultants......

Anyone else notice this?

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General

DanMarotta

12-Amethyst

Frank,

I agree with the point that the solutions the community create are great and the experience shows. No question. PlanetPTC came to be because PTC customers wanted a destination to share files with each other, discuss role-based issues, build a network of fellow product designers, admins, academics, engineers and managers across industries.

For the most part, PTC-generated solutions live on PTC.com and sites like the LearningExchange. Would you say they could co-exist here so you can connect with PTC application engineers and the people behind the software?

What experience are the instructors lacking? I understand real world, but do you mean not in manufacturing or medical? Or wasn't a systems admin to 100 Windchill users? What business problem are you looking to solve?

I'm not sure I'd have to check, there might be a conflict of interest if PTC takes on customers as paid consultants. Consultant or not, customers do shape the products. January is a big month for our technical committees. They'll be onsite at HQ hearing about product roadmaps and getting a glimpe of what's to come. The user experience lab runs the whole week too, great opportunity to grab feedback. Joining a regional group, attending a live event or becoming a TC are great ways to connect with product managers and influence PTC software development.

James62

1-Visitor

hello,

Our company bought Creo Parametric with FMX and ISDX at the end of last year. I am using this package at work since last week on monday. I still feel very lucky about it but...

All of these guys that left messages in this thread so far are kind of right...

I might be a kid in this. I dont consider myself as experienced user. I ve been learning about Pro/E and then Creo like 8 months ahead of time before we bought the Creo licence. I struggle alot now with Creo and the real world problems I try to solve every day at work in these last two weeks.

I might add that the package we bought includes one year of maintanance.

I was told by my reseller of Creo that I should only turn at them with all of my questions and not directly to PTC. So I shot a few at them already... at first I tried a harder one which they weren't able to solve yet.

Its related to skeleton models and use of them for multiple cavity mold designs.

I figured out the solution right after the moment I hang up the phone with them. They tried to come up with something, they have actually made short tutorial videos for me, but after I dragged them deeper into that... cause at first they thought its simple... they stopped comming with any kind of reply.

After few days I kind of ended up on teaching them.

And you gotta understand me. I don't really feel confident about my skills in Creo. I could list tons of things I used to design in other software packages that I can't make with Creo yet. I have alot to learn about Creo still.

I am just saying I already know what does that mean when for example Frank say things like "the trainer, who was fresh out of college (and very sharply dressed, I might add)" and "otherwise I end up schooling him instead". These and generally speaking but clearly hit the nail on the head just about right.

*sigh*

Question: Can I still contact PTC directly with my problems? Or am I stuck with my reseller?

Bunch of things don't really make sense in Creo compared to other CAD packages. Trying to think in Pro/E way gets pretty hard sometimes.

BrianMartin

13-Aquamarine

Hi Jakub...

As far as I understand from other threads on here and speaking with others on Planet PTC, you're actually stuck with the reseller.

Personally, I find this terribly unfortunate. I'm definitely mincing words here, too. Right now Jakub, your best bet is to come here to Planet PTC with your questions. I have some Mold Design experience in Pro/E but it's been a good 9 years before I've used the package. I'll definitely be out of practice.

Even though Mold Design is a specialty, I'd post your questions in the Creo Modeling space. There's probably a mold design sub-group and you can post there, too. In my experience though, you'll get a faster reply from the modeling group as a whole. Even if I am not the best person to answer your questions, there are other experts and experienced users here who will jump in to help. I'm confident of that.

Take care...

-Brian

s.iyer

1-Visitor

I agree with Frank's point of view especially the "Canned" demo. Many a times, especially during on-site training, the customer expects the software company to study their product, interact with their designers and take a live example for demo.

A canned demo followed step by step often puts the person demonstrating in a quandry, especially when difficult questions are asked. Often I had to pitch in. A canned demo does not connect the demonstrator with the customer. e.g a Custom machinery designer has nothing to do with a Soap box or an Electric Kettle.

I think this is the point that Frank wishes to make.

BKF

1-Visitor

OR, PTC could take project questions from customers and then craft demos/trainings that actually answer those specific project questions. This approach would give PTC staffers time to go through and build the solution and overcome any glitches or quandaries that naturally occur during the CAD process.

I think I understand what PTC is trying to do (with corporate customers and even FIRST robotics teams for that matter) when they use these "canned demos". PTC is trying to develop demos/trainings that expose rather than solve specific customer problems. It is the goal of PTC to get get customers... perhaps exposure meets this goal before training(s) does??

The learning curve for Pro/E seems to be steep -- at least steeper than Solidworks and certainly steeper that TurboCAD Pro yet the PTC training seems to have lots of room for improvement.

Let me stop here. I certainly owe it to PTC to take a hard look at the exchange and PTCU, but up to now I have had an experience similar to Frank in that I had endure some "canned" i.e. not so helpful PTC trainings.

Finally, I am really grateful for all the help I have received from this community. Thanks Community and PTC.

JonathanHodgson

13-Aquamarine

A slightly different point, but I've thought for years that I'd really like a member of the software development team to come and watch over my shoulder for a week or two (yes, I know that's not really practical given the size of PTC's customer base). I know it's a rant that's been had before, but the 'improvements' they bring out often seem nothing to do with the way we use the software.

On one level, we saw a great demo in Mechanica training of the Optimisation study. It worked fine on a mobile phone pocket clip; but I've yet to make an Optimisation study work on a real part (i.e., one that's complex enough to warrant it!).

On another level, there are tiny changes that would help day-to-day - for instance, almost every time I create an Angle x D chamfer it takes the angle from the wrong surface, and I have to flip it; similarly, when I Merge two surfaces, it almost always chooses to keep the wrong sides by default.

Stuff like this makes me feel that there's a disconnect between the people writing it, and the people using it.

BrianMartin

13-Aquamarine

Here here Jonathan. While I certainly don't want this to devolve into a gripe-fest, I have experienced many of the same frustrations with PTC trainers and training materials.

Byron, what you're proposing is probably the answer- but it will not happen from PTC. I don't mean that as a slam I mean it from a practical standpoint. They simply couldn't do business that way... it would take too long and the customers wouldn't be able to afford training developed in that way (individualized).

HOWEVER, I've always believed the customized training sessions are a better way to go. PTC University is a nice tool... truly, but it's canned. Learning Exchange is a great venue for free tutorials- if you go there religiously and know what you're looking for. And certainly this site is another good tool for finding help. Yet, this still doesn't nail Frank's question, resolve Jonathan's concerns, nor does it address Byron's ideas.

The solution? Well... I think there's a two-pronged solution:

First, we "experienced" users need to storm those Technical Committees and start making noise about the features we need. We need to start voicing our opinion. Maybe we can even head off some of those improvements we don't really want and direct attention to truly beneficial features.
Second, I think the free market needs to step in and fill the void that PTC cannot fill. There's a shamefully small handful of companies out there who do business the way Byron suggests (with regards to PTC software). I think the market needs to create more of these companies. Experienced users need to form their own firms... and offer training and consulting services as Byron suggests. These firms will compliment PTC and, yes, at times these firms will necessarily compete with PTC, too. Yet without competition there's really no impetus for constant improvement.

PTC's software improves partly because of the passion and dedication of it's people- but also due to competition and other market forces. PTC's customer support, training, and outreach efforts would also improve if other companies started competing for this market. The VARs do not compete.

It's tough to word this in the positive way I want to it to be interpreted. I'm not trying to beat up on PTC. I think they're trying to get better and sites like this prove it. I also believe some healthy competition would be a positive thing for customers (companies), users, and PTC, too.

So I guess what I'm saying is... PTC is only a company. If we want the software to develop in a beneficial way, we have to make ourselves heard. If we want better training, support, and outreach we may just have to demonstrate how it's done by creating it ourselves.

Anyone wanna help me start a company?

-Brian

Patriot_1776

Author

22-Sapphire II

Excellent suggestions, all, thanks! I thought this could be a very productive way to let PTC know that there seems to be a VAST, as yet untapped, knowledge base. We experienced users create geometry probably undreamed of by the developers, and it would be a shame to waste this.

@Dan: I'm really busy today, but I'll address your questions when I can.

The short answer is basically what others have voiced: That the guys PTC has available for training us, generally, are fresh out of school with zero practical knowledge, and when the topic strays from the canned demo to solving real-world customer problems, they are, frankly, incapable of helping us. Generally, we are taking training to address a specific issue, and I, honestly, expect a guy teaching me, to be at least my equal......otherwise I end up schooling him instead.

I think PTC would be a lot better off looking for and hiring us Pro/E veterans to teach the courses, rather than kids (I can say that since I'm generally about twice their age) fresh out of college. I realize we'd be more expensive, but, far more worth it in customer satisfaction. For instance, Brian and I helped someone here with a difficult problem that none of the trainers I've ever had would have been able to solve. Think how good that would look to your customers to havd a guy who could not only teach the canned demo but actually help the customer solve the problem he came to the course to solve in the first place?

JamesR.Montgome

5-Regular Member

I'd like to address this thread if I may. I am the North American training lead for PTC. It is my role to ensure that every learning consultant provides the highest quality learning experience possible. First let me apologize if your learning experiences have not met your expectations. We at PTC University strive to add value and exceed our clients' expectations every day.

I can assure you that all instructors have completed a rigorous certification process prior to any delivery. This process includes both technical instructor skills training and course mastery. Additionally, I can add that each of the PTC learning consultants have several years experience as designers and engineers in a variety of industries, some with more than 10 years real world design experience using PTC products.

A fair number of comments on this thread refer to the demos in our training content as sanitized or canned. I think it is important to understand that we are teaching the concepts and functionality in many of our courses. We need a fair amount of predictability to successfully demonstrate the content.

What I think Frank and Brian are suggesting is that PTC should develop training content more geared toward the client situation. I believe someone referred to it as "connect the dots." We at PTC could not agree more, which is why we now offer the "Best Practices Academy."

Best Practice Academy (BPA) is our training approach that goes well beyond "pick and clicks". While onsite, the consultant will discuss the various methods one can use to solve modeling issues with Creo. The consultant will then work with your design teams to identify the best methods that align to your particular situation. The take-away for the teams is that they know how to leverage the best methods that have been tailored to your specific products.

I would encourage everyone to follow this link to PTC.com and view the example course on rounds.

http://www.ptc.com/products/ptc-university/best-practice-academy/

BrianMartin

13-Aquamarine

Hi James,

Thank you for joining the discussion. I actually already checked out Best Practice Academy's tutorial on Assembly Methodology. I posted my comments because there was no place to submit feedback after viewing the video. I applaud the attempt but, if you follow this thread, you'll see I was not really impressed with the results.

http://communities.ptc.com/message/173863#173863I

I certainly believe you when you say many of your trainers had years upon years of design experience. Most of the instructors I've met have been very professional, polite, and very competent at teaching the material they're given. This is wonderful. Yet the criticism expressed here is still very much valid. How can BOTH be true??

The answer begins here: "Many of your trainers had years upon years of experience of design experience". The operative word here is actually "HAD". At one time, they were deep in the trenches working with the tool and they "felt the pain" of the average user. Now, they're so far out of the design loop, they've become out of touch with real world problems. After a few software revisions pass you by, your design experience turns from practical into theoretical.

For example, a few years ago during the rollout of the new Wildfire dashboard, the users got a brand new Hole Tool. The old tool in Pro/E 2001 was okay, but the new tool captured all sorts of design standards and was tremendously more useful (in theory). If you were a lead designer using Pro/E 2001 and you left to become a trainer for PTC during this time, you'd see the new tool as very, very useful. You'd see the Wildfire Hole Tool as a huge step forward... and you'd teach it as such. However, most real world designers STILL don't use that thing as PTC intends. Why? Because it severely limits or destroys your ability to make changes to holes that have been patterned without having the hardware fail assembled to those holes fail!

I'm sure you're saying to yourself "how in the heck can that be accurate?" I can assure you, it is. Pattern a standard hole of any given size (3mm, etc). Assemble hardware into those holes by Mate/Axis. Now try changing the hole size to 5mm... and watch your hardware fail.

This is the simpliest example I could give to illustrate my point. Once you no longer live and die by using the software for design work and meeting deadlines, the "small" yet important details get lost. Even the best designers get a little 'soft' when they step out of the pressure cooker of a design environment and move into tech support, training, or consulting. They lose perspective. And this makes them less credible and less effective as trainers.

Re-reading my response I understand how critical it sounds. Please understand that I realize you're only here to help... and that you passionately believe in your mission to provide value to your customers. I have that same passion for my job and the tools I use to accomplish it. I love Pro/E and Creo and there's no product I'd rather work with. To that end, I want the same things you want... hopefully my feedback will be seen more as "tough love" than anything else.

I think Best Practice Academy has the right idea... and I believe some of the other new training tools (Learning Exchange, Learning Connector, etc) will continue to improve the quality of training. I simply feel that we need to continue improving... and exploring problems (like the instructors' loss of perspective) so that we may find solutions to benefit everyone.

Thank you and best regards,

-Brian

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