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ptc-5936191-Visitor
1-Visitor
October 28, 2011
Question

WF5 ribbon

  • October 28, 2011
  • 28 replies
  • 10858 views
Friday question,



After sending this question below - and receiving many constructive
replies BTW, no one has had a good word to say about WF5 ribbon
interface especially for drawings. If this is the case, why the heck do
we (the users) have to put up with the PTC spin? Loss of productivity,
hatred of something unfamiliar or am I just getting the negatives -
what's your take on this unpopular decision?



Richard A. Black

Lead Design Engineer

Eaton Corporation

440 Murray Hill Road

Southern Pines

NC 28387 USA



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28 replies

R
RonGrabau1-Visitor
1-Visitor
October 28, 2011
In defense of PTC, they have corrected a lot of their ribbon issues in Creo. I am a member of the PTC/USER Technical Committees and as the ribbon was introduced you can be sure that PTC heard the user base.

The ribbon is not a bad interface in my own opinion. It is a lot like the latest Microsoft office technology. I have gotten use to my Office interface and I am sure I will get use to this. It is just different and once you get use to it, it is not all that bad. I have also been reviewing the new Windchill 10.0 and actually like what they have done there too. I can hear my users screaming, but I find it easy to use. Yeah, there is some hunting around for some functions, but it is far better than the 18 menu picks to get to a function. I use to have hundreds of mapkeys and now I have about 20. It has been my experience that people find something different is difficult and will complain no matter what. I find it funny how fickle users are. We complain that the user interface is no good. PTC responds and then we complain that they changed it from the old interface. Sometimes PTC is in a no win situation. Being an old time user, I would never want to go back to the old menus. I like what they have done! Now, could it be better…. certainly! Did PTC make a mistake with the Ribbon in WF5? YES.

What PTC needs is helpful input. I believe that the ribbon is here to stay for a while so what constructive inputs does everyone have? What is really funny is that a number of years back there was a lot of anger over some new changes to assembly mode. People were screaming and demanding blood for such a change. Since I was a committee chair I wanted to know more about their issues. As a committee we had already worked a lot with PTC on the subject and were happy with the results. It turns out that a number of the biggest complainers had never used the new functionality. They are read a few things but did not really know what they were talking about. I put out a couple of videos and the complaints stopped.

I am just expressing my opinion. If you want to slam me for it, by all means. I have a delete button on my keyboard that works really well. No mapkey or toolkit programming required.

Ron Grabau
PTC user since 1991
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MikeBrattoli12-Amethyst
12-Amethyst
October 28, 2011
Ron,

Well stated.

I like my delete button as well – it’s like an old friend and it never complains ?. I do miss “kill -9 though”!

Mike Brattoli
PTC User since 1993 – TC member since 1996
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ptc-19327451-Visitor
1-Visitor
October 28, 2011
The biggest problem with the ribbon interface as implemented in WF5 is the need for 'instinctive knowledge' about what should be available when a certain ribbon is active.



In drawing mode:

For example, when the 'Layout ribbon' is active and I right click on a drawing view (after hovering on the view),



I get the following choices:

next

previous

Insert General view

Insert Detailed view

Insert Auxiliary View

Sheet setup

Drawing Models

Lock view movement

update sheet



But If I am in the Annotate tab I get:

next

previous

pick from list

Show Model Annotations

Dimension - New References

Note

Geometric Tolerance

Surface Finish

Custom Symbol

snap line

cleanup dimensions

lock view movement

update sheet



Now, these picks are almost (if not) completely different from the above list if you first left click on a view before right clicking. This is all very confusing to remember, unless you have been using the software constantly (and swearing at times) for anywhere from 10-40 hours or so. And if you step away from doing drawings for a few days, you trip over this again and again. As I have said in other threads about the ribbon interface, compare this to the actions of Excel, for example:



If I am in the Home, or Insert, or Formulas tab, when I right-click a cell, I get a popup of the most applicable commands I can apply to the cell. Cell color fill does not need the Page Layout tab accessed first, and the filter or sort command does not need the Formulas tab highlighted first, etc...



PTC did not apply this logic to their ribbon menus when the ribbon came out for the drawing interface, so the comment that the ribbon is 'just like Office apps' is misleading. MS have applied the ribbon interface in Excel both more logically and with a more flexible workflow.



This 'context sensitivity' is how I recall the WF 4 right-click menus working (and working pretty well). At one time there was a lot of talk about object-action workflow, and I thought WF 4 did an OK job of this. I think the ribbon as implemented in WF5 is a step (or two) back. The workflow is going back to the older action-object method, but is both and neither at once.



And the answer is not to alt- or control- click on the object to get features that are not available on a certain tab as the solution, (I think this was the work around explained available in Creo 1?) This implies that I already know what tab needs to be active when I am looking for a particular task, or more likely, I have already right-clicked on the item in question, I have not seen the command I need, and I then alt-or control click the item again in the vain hope that the command will come up.



This causes uncertainty in the mind of the user as to how the interface is designed and how it is to be applied. Say what you want about the older-nested menus. But at least the commands were where you left them.



Unless it is thought otherwise, I am not needlessly bashing PTC in this regard. I NEED a tool that is sharp and useful as any tool in my toolbox. Every interface change since about version 2001 seems like a step sideways rather than forward. I just wonder what type of usability testing PTC has done before rolling out these changes, and how the feedback from these testers differs from those of us in the 'trenches'. Also, how do I get to be one of these usability testers?



I would love to set the ghost of Steve Jobs loose at PTC...





Christopher F. Gosnell



FPD Company

124 Hidden Valley Road

McMurray, PA 15317

PH:724.941-5540

FX:724.941.8322

www.fpdcompany.com
H
hippe1-Visitor
1-Visitor
October 31, 2011

I can sum up the frustration caused with the new ribbon interface with one word: Training. (Or lack thereof) Our customers who attempted to use the new interface without training were also quite frustrated. Once they made the investment to get guidance through training, they were much happier. One comment I heard was: once you get used to the new interface and have to revisit the older interface you realize how beneficial it really is. Now, this isn't to say it is perfect. Customer feedback isindeed important, and PTC listened and reacted with Creo 1.0. Context sensitive RMB menus act upon the selection(or lack ofselection) with commonly used functions dependent on the selection/active tab, so yes, the menu will look differentif you have something selected vs.not having somethingselected even from within the same tab. The process of selection is user communication to the software that you are lookingfor features relative to the itemselected. I myself have to switch between Wildfire 4.0, Creo Elements/Pro 5.0 (Wildfire 5.0) and Creo Parametric 1.0 everyday, and I see the benefit of the new user interface each time I switch to earlier versions with the old interface.The ribbon is really not the evil interface users make it out to be...

M
mpeterson1-Visitor
1-Visitor
October 31, 2011
I can believe that, but how many companies will provide training for each new
release? I think that is the issue and also wonder if the changes by PTC are in
part to sell more training and sell to new users. Medium to small companies
usually don't have the money for on-going training after paying for the software
and maintenance and I have seen numerous small companies that don't even pay the
maintenance.

Mark A. Peterson
Sr Design Engineer
Igloo Products Corp
-


R
RonGrabau1-Visitor
1-Visitor
October 31, 2011
PTC puts out some very good training information. I have used these to help me understand what is new. These are free on PTC's website. If you don't have money for training, then use the tutorial below. Someone in your company must decide what goes into your config.pro and what is out of the box. A quick PowerPoint works as well. While this may not be as good as an instructor led training class it can help fill in the gaps.

The picture below is from the default browser window.


[cid:image001.png@01CC97D6.D2680650]


H
hippe1-Visitor
1-Visitor
October 31, 2011
There are also many tutorials at: learningexchange.ptc.com, which is hosted by PTCU. You can also get eLearning, which is rich with content and offered for a very reasonable cost. The eLearning content is the same content that is the foundation of instructor led training, and is a purchase in the same vein as software. It is constantly being updated and an investment in maintenance will assure you can take advantage of fresh content as it is developed. You can also leverage your reseller who may provide sessions on tips & tricks, either onsite or via a Web broadcast. There is so much digital content available that there really isn't any reason a person who is willing can't get up to speed with the latest release without breaking the bank.

Doug Hippe
Technical Account Manager
EAC Product Development Solutions
1-888-225-7579 ext. 144
D
DamianCastillo1-Visitor
1-Visitor
November 1, 2011

I personally don't think a Ribbon UI is a bad thing. When a Ribbon UI is implemented properfly, it can become very productive with some training, practice and time.


The problem we had with the WF5 Ribbon UI, is the inability to click on something and interact with it. You must be in the correct ribbon tab to interact with the drawing contents. This can be bypassed by holding down the ALT key but it's still poorly implemented. There are other issues with it, but I won't bother listing them.


Creo 1.0 has improved the Ribbion UI from Wildfire 5. ( I REFUSE to call it Creo/Elements Pro 5.0 )


People just need to face the fact that change happens and you need to embrace it or be left behind. Going into anything with a bad attitude is not smart. You need to first learn it, understand it and use it. I think most will find that the Ribbion UI is not that bad and in many cases would never go back to the old way.


"Too many people walk around like Clark Kent, because they don't realize they can Fly like Superman"

A
A.DelNegro1-Visitor
1-Visitor
November 1, 2011
Well said, Damian. I agree, though I haven't had the pleasure (lol) of
using the ribbon in Pro/E or Creo as yet. I'm not sure I initially
liked the ribbon in Office 07, but I don't find any issues with it now.
I would hope that the programmers are focused on easier to use UI's,
which it sounds like, since the latest implementation seems better.
It's just a shame that it wasn't that good out of the box. PTC needs to
fully bake this stuff before releasing it, but that is typical PTC.



I still can't believe there are people not using intent manager. I
turned that on, on day one and haven't turned it off since. Not sure
how to function without it. In my opinion it's way faster, but I guess
if it's not for you, be thankful there is an 'off' button.



Tony


D
dustin1-Visitor
1-Visitor
November 1, 2011

HERE HERE! I am so happy to see this forum with sensable feedback on the ribbon issue. We've been on WF5 since it's inception and I love the ribbon. I've noticed a major increase in my production, particularly on drawings with large models. It is so much easier to target specific drawing items which limits the computer crunching to just what you need.


I personally did not recieve any training on WF5, and yes it did take me some time to acclimate to the ribbon. I will say however, it took me much longer to acquire Wildfire from pre-wildfire than the couple weeks it took to fully grasp the potential of the ribbon. Change is essential, and when given a chance can be a great thing. I would never go pre WF5 if I can help it, and that is the atmosphere in our workplace.


In Reply to Damian Castillo:



I personally don't think a Ribbon UI is a bad thing. When a Ribbon UI is implemented properfly, it can become very productive with some training, practice and time.


The problem we had with the WF5 Ribbon UI, is the inability to click on something and interact with it. You must be in the correct ribbon tab to interact with the drawing contents. This can be bypassed by holding down the ALT key but it's still poorly implemented. There are other issues with it, but I won't bother listing them.


Creo 1.0 has improved the Ribbion UI from Wildfire 5. ( I REFUSE to call it Creo/Elements Pro 5.0 )


People just need to face the fact that change happens and you need to embrace it or be left behind. Going into anything with a bad attitude is not smart. You need to first learn it, understand it and use it. I think most will find that the Ribbion UI is not that bad and in many cases would never go back to the old way.


"Too many people walk around like Clark Kent, because they don't realize they can Fly like Superman"


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